To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

Greenoes

Many End of Life documents have a compulsory section on tissue donation - it seems that despite these policies and documents, many families are still not given the choice.

So what's the point of the register ?

Because most people don't have End of Life documents, I would guess, Lurking.

Aprilanne - that is why so much more education and publicity campaigning is needed - so people understand that, even though their loved one is still warm, on the ventilator, and their heart is still beating, they are no longer alive in any sense of the word, other than the purely mechanical, and there is no chance of any recovery.

The Register is used by the Specialist Nurses for Organ Donation as described and should be used as a discussion prompt between families.

The Register cannot be used for every patient that dies - there are hundreds per day. In my experience, tissue donation is not as widely embraced by society as organ donation is. Health Care professionals are yet to break through the taboo of asking for tissue rather than organs.

Still waiting for that perfect world

Aprilanne you are incredibly lucky that you haven't ever been in the position to have to make that decision. I can tell you that when my DS died last year it was a decision that took seconds to make. We were able to donate his heart valves and to know that that will make a massive difference does actually bring some small comfort. In the hideousness of that moment of knowing your son isn't going to be there any more at least there will be some small part of him still living, albeit in somebody else.

The timing of this thread is strange because two days ago I contacted the Heart Valve Bank to see if there had been any news about his valves and if they'd been used yet. By chance the person who took my phone call had actually been in the position of needing heart valves for her son. He's now 24 and has had new valves several times. It was so good to talk to her and hear at first hand just what a difference it makes.

I never for one moment felt as if my darling boy was "being carved up" (as the OP and AprilAnne have so insensitively phrased it. He was only ever treated with the utmost care, sensitivity and respect (as were we, his devastated parents and brothers).

Get a grip and think before you write and post.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/tiger-tiger-tragic-club-death-7389842

Have a read - this family are amazing

i have said i would give no problem its the children i would struggle with .i just pray to god i am never in that situation for the children.i mean i think the parents of the baby were very brave .but could i be so selfless

Apologies for the non clicky link - I'm on my phone.

There is a video by Jill, Alex's mum on there about her decision - have your tissues ready.

I'm truly honoured to have been there.

LILY sorry for being insensitive .my choice of words were maybe not thought through .maybe brutal facts was not the brightest thing to say .

As long as you're prepared not to accept a donated organ either aprilanne, that's your decision. But to accept without being prepared to donate is the very height of hypocrisy.

My precious lad was treated with love and affection by the hospital staff......the police took myself, my DH and my DS1 and followed the ambulance at high speed.....they rushed my lad to a room and came out minutes later in tears. He was pronounced dead on arrival. We were allowed to spend some time with him and we said our goodbyes.

When I asked the nurse to check his pockets for his donor card she looked shocked. She left us in another room but there was a large window and we sat watching her through it. She gently felt in his pockets - all the time talking to him and smiling at him. She found the card and stroked his face and said 'thank you.'

At no time, ever, did anybody treat him as just a dead child...they loved him with all their hearts for the entire time he was in their care.

For me, it will always be a 'no brainer.' It is the one thing that surrounds the death of my Matt that I will never, ever have any regrets about x

I have never ever been in that position for needing a donor or having my loved ones organs donated, but I can totally understand the gift of donation. There have been some wonderful stories on here from those who have received donor organs, and those who have donated their loved one's organs. If I am going to loose a child anyway, I would rather his/her organs be put to good use than, being cremated or buried, which is what will happen. For me, it would help my grief I am sure, knowing that my child's heart is beating in sombody else, keeping them alive, or kidney, or corneas, helping somebody to see. I hope that I never ever have to make that decision, but I would if the situation arose. Same, I am on the organ donor register, and have told dh that I would like my organs donated if I died.

Greenoes - to make a clicky link, all you have to do is to put two square brackets (in front of and after () the link address - eg [[www.madeupwebsite.com ]] (but without the spaces fore and aft of the address). If you put the square brackets, paste in the link, then leave a space and type in whatever title you want for the link, then do the end brackets, it will appear as just the title you want.

Greenoes clicky link

Sorry, Greenoes - I missed that you were on your phone - and probably don't need telling how to do links!

I apologise if I am repeating some information already given but have not read every page of the thread.

A year ago my liver basically failed suddenly, attacked by my own immune system with no obvious warning. I was placed in a medical coma to literally slow down my dying. Within 36 hours I was transplanted and am now living an active and happy life. I can never thank enough the family who suffered losing a loved one for their generosity of spirit so that I can be here today. In fact it is diffficult to think about, and to accept that I should be alive and the donor dead.

My main point is, I live in Spain, where everyone is considered to be a donor. Yes, family wishes are, I believe, final but the assumption is that we are all donors. Because of this there are many, many more organs available. If my liver had collapsed in the UK I truly believe I would be dead.

Please don't apologise SDT!! If you knew me you'd know that your instructions are very much required!! I might spend my days (and nights) happily working ventilators and haemofilters but give me a technological wizardry thing that a 5 yr old could probably do with their eyes shut and I'm all "la la la la la la la" in my head

Thank you, Greenoes.

thanks Aprilanne

Autopsies are also performed regardless of relatives' feelings if there are reasons that justify them.
I think it makes perfect sense to have an opt out system (I live in a county where it applies) and I don't think it is an ethical issue at all how dead bodies are handled, if there is enough consideration for the feelings of the relatives and loved ones.

That's a beautiful (if that's the right word) way your darling boy was treated, and I have to say that it was very much the case with my DS too. Although technically speaking, he was dead when he was brought to the hospital they tried so hard for three hours to resuscitate him and it was only that there was no chance left at all that he was actually declared dead. Even when he'd been taken away to the mortuary he was only treated with kindness and gentleness.

It was absolutely never a question that his heart valves (or as much as possible) would be donated. How lovely to think that a part of him will live on.

Thanks for explaining it all, Green. It is nice to know the professionals involved do not see a child as just a corpse and parents who decide not to donate as putting their feelings above other children and therefore in some way complicit in the deaths of others children, as some posters on here have put their own feelings.

As a bereaved parent, it was never an issue for us as our child's cause of death was from complications of allogenic stem cell transplant for treatment of AML. But I do understand how it feels to be told that your child will die and child death as it occurs in a hospital/PICU environment.

Their child is dead already. There is no possible harm to their child whatsoever. The only possible casualty in this is their feelings. And they rate their feelings over someone else's life.

Im in the extremely lucky position (as are many on this thread) to not have a fucking clue what it must be like to "only" have to worry about my feelings after losing a child. It's not for anyone to judge a parent who can't go through with organ donation

I have no problems with any parent making medical decisions for a child unable to consent, assuming the parents themselves are able to consent in an informed fashion and there is no evidence that they are allowing harm unnecessarily. So parents should, and regularly do, opt for medical treatment, for surgery, for organ donation on behalf of their children.

I would not support an opt-out system for organ donation because the very idea that one must take extraordinary action to assert bodily autonomy is completely against my view of what bodily autonomy should be. Only I have the right to say what happens to my body and lack of explicit consent to impinge on my bodily autonomy should be assumed as non-consent. I can't accept any place for "implied" consent, a.k.a. well, you didn't say "no" (which is what the opt-out system relies on).

Following on from that, I would support a system that didn't allow NOK to override an informed decision made by the deceased. My body, I say what happens with it. Not my husband, not my Mum and Dad, not my child, but me.

I believe in a system of socialised medicine based on medical need. I would not support the institution of reciprocal rules regarding donation, where one is not able to benefit unless one is also willing to give. Anyone is free to judge such people but I don't think that such ethical judgements about the social value of the recipient have a place in medical care. I think that prioritising anyone based on "worthiness" (in this case, judged by how willing they would be to donate their own organs) is a rather horrific concept.

And I forgot the most important point. To all those here who have shared their real-life stories of organ donation, it is amazing (and humbling) to see how the act of donation has brought you comfort in such dark times. to all of you, inadequate but all I have.