To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

I'm appalled at the judgey tone of your OP. The parents here have done a beautiful thing by ensuring that other people don't have to suffer the same pain that they are currently going through. To dismiss what they did as "carving them up for parts" is disgraceful.

I am really sorry for your losses, and I can't imagine how I'd feel if I lost DS, but I do think to get so attached to ashes is not healthy. Have you had counselling for your bereavement?

Lweji - you are really showing that you have absolutely no idea at all of what we go through as bereaved parents. I have spent several days tracking down my DS's heart valves. I would give me a huge comfort to know that a small part of him lives on. As you say, you can't imagine it. Don't try to imagine it as you are nowhere remotely near where we are.

Not healthy? FFS.

Do you really think counselling is the answer? Your ignorance is breathtaking, and having a jibe at Mrs is unforgiveable.

Bowing out as thread gone off topic

It was not a jibe. And I understand that people react differently. But I stick to my opinion.

You understand that people react differently but insist that those who don't react as you do, to the loss of their child, which you have not experienced, are unhealthy and all their, in your opinion, problems can be solved with counselling.

Okay.

On the contrary, crje, because this topic is about child organ donation, and that, by necessity with the exception of sibling stem cell transplant, involves the death of a child and allowing that child's organs to be harvested from their bodies which are still, at the time, on a ventilator.

Lweji. Well, I hope you never have your opinions tested, because I'll tell you something for nothing. Making those comments/decision when you actually have to, is nothing like thinking you know what you'd do in that situation. NOTHING.

BabyX...your comment absolutley disgusts me...and yes is extremley disrespectful. maybe you should just count your lucky stars that YOUR baby is still here...and keep your mouth shut about things you know nothing about. my 8 year old daughter saved lives through organ donation and yes this was a decision she was unable to make for herself...i made it. just like i made a decision on what school she attended, when she saw a dentist, if she got her vaccines etc. and quite frankly your "carving up" comment is beyond upsetting and very offensive!!!

Personally I believe that the best system would be a mix of an opt in and opt out.

That way if people genuinely do have strong feelings about organ donation, then they aren't obliged to do so, and can go on the opt out list. Their next of kin should not be able to override their decision. These people should not be eligible for organ donations themselves. I'm sorry, but you CANNOT demand that other people give you something when you aren't prepared to do the same thing. It's not about "rewards". It's about consistency of belief and not being a fucking hypocrite. You can't say "I don't think it's right that other people should benefit from my death" and then say "oh, but I should be able to benefit from the death's of other people". To say otherwise is absolute, 100% blatant hypocrisy and people should be ashamed of themselves.

People who feel strongly about organ donation should be able to opt into the system, and sign a document saying that they actively want their organs to be donated in the event of their death, and give any exceptions (some people are happy to donate everything except the heart for example). In the event of their deaths, their family should not be able to override their decision. It's disrespectful for the exact same reason why someone who decided to opt out having their organs donated is disrespectful.

Meanwhile, people who don't really give a shit either way don't sign up to either register, and the state assumes that they are on the side of organ donation in the event of their death. The family should be consulted from the angle of "not signed up to either register - do you know what their preferences were on the matter? Generally if someone is not signed up to either, then we assume that they are willing to help others. However, if you have strong objections then we will take them into account".

Young children and babies would fall under the same system as we have now to be honest - their views could never be known, so it's down to the parents to decide.

My grandmother died nearly a month ago, the funeral was last week. She was 97 and her ashes will be interred with the body of one of her sons who died from whooping cough aged 2, nearly 80 years ago. The wound never closed, she never got over the loss, she lived a long life but she visited that grave until she was incapable through dementia very recently.

I take great comfort that her ashes will rest with him, even though I have no belief in an afterlife because it feels right to me.

No doubt you find that silly Lweji after all they are only ashes.

Unless you have lost a child or had a child waiting for a transplant you cannot possibly understand the traumatic feelings such ignorant and distasteful views that are being aired here raise. I speak as the mother of a child, 15 at diagnosis, 18 at death, who was devastated that due to his diagnosis and treatment for cancer he would never be able to donate any part of his body. I was in a position of knowing his thoughts and therefore had he been able to donate I would have given permission. I have no idea how I would have felt afterwards as I am not in that position. I am in the position of knowing my child knew he could not have helped others from his death. Had my child been younger and we had not spoken of their views it would have been down to me to make that decision and whatever that decision might have been I would be pissed off at the judgements of those who had not been in my position.

I lost a child, then 9 years later I lost another. I reacted completely differently to both of their deaths so how the fuck anyone can think they will know exactly what they will do when not having been in the situation at all is beyond me.

How dare you think that the one tiny bit of control bereaved parents have over anything is unhealthy, we had no control over our children dying, we have no control over schools and friends and parties and clubs and all the other things we should be doing with our children anymore. All we have is our memories and some of our precious childrens possessions and the decision over what happens to their bodies and how and where we lay them to rest. Its fucking gut wrenching, there is no pain like it, and you think its unhealthy? I think your detached attitude and the way you are voicing your insensitive opinion to several bereaved parents is unhealthy, have you tried counselling to try any get you to be less heartless Lweji ?

By the way I did had 10 years of counselling and am still not over it, I must be doing it wrong in your opinion

I don't think it's right to say that unless you are willing to donate you cannot receive.

Being placed on the organ transplant list is hard enough emotionally and physically.

I don't agree with NOK having no say if someone has signed the register.

Those who are making great pronouncements on organ donation on this thread have not been in the position of needing an organ or donating. Neither have those telling bereaved parents how to grieve, lost a child. They need to vent their frustrations on something like a parent and child parking space thread.

I've received an organ but I wholeheartedly understand how for some people cannot donate their loved ones organs. If I can manage that then I'm sure others with no experience could find some compassion.

I also understand people cannot or will not donate their loved ones organs. I haven't lost a child or a loved one. I have watched my husband dying in front of my eyes and being saved many times. We live with his gift daily. So thankful for it.

And it was a gift. Given with no ties or restrictions. Just given with love and hope.

I support opt out. I don't support NOK having no say.

lweji, I hope you'll reflect on your comments and realise how callous, judgemental, patronising and downright cruel they are towards anyone who has experienced the death of their child.

I would like to think I would donate DS's organs, if it was possible, but I don't know what that would be like in reality, and if I am perfectly honest, I wont let my mind go there because the thought of losing him knocks the breath out of me. And the dismissive tone of some of the posts about ashes and remains; just because you don't attach emotional significance to them, doesn't mean that other people shouldn't, or that it's wrong to. Some of the comments have been very cold and cruel.

to all the parents who have shared their experiences of losing a child, expat and mrsD your strength and dignity in the face of such awful tragedy is, as always, truly amazing. ineed I'm very sorry for your losses x. And those sharing their experiences of their loved ones receiving an organ through transplant, the way you have spoken about the donors and your experiences is incredibly moving.

And the parents who spoke about donating their child's organs; I don't really have words for how moving it is to hear you speak about this.

I find it very telling that people on here who have themselves received an organ transplant would not and do not judge loved ones who decided not to donate their child's organs.

Lweji what breathtaking ignorance and insensitivity you have shown here!

Suggesting that MrsDeV needs counselling to "let go" of her attachment to her child's ashes just shows how little you know.

After my daughter died , I had plenty of counselling. Let me tell you that NO bereavement counsellor experienced in child loss would ever suggest that an attachment to ashes or a grave was abnormal. All my counsellor ever said about those matters was that if I felt that I needed daily visits to my daughter's grave, then that was what I should do.

If you have not lost a child, you are not in a position to say what is normal and what is not for a bereaved parent. It's not like losing a parent or grandparent. You carry the grief with you your whole life and you never ever let go in the same way that if your child goes missing, you never, ever stop looking for them. It may not seem healthy to other people but nothing about losing a child is healthy or normal.

When my father died, I was not especially attached to his body or his grave. When my daughter died some of her organs were retained for post - mortem while we buried her body. When those organs were released, we were asked by the bereavement social worker what would we like to have happen to them. We arranged for them to be buried with the rest of her body because I wanted her remains all to be together. It didn't matter to her any more but it mattered to us. And the hospital were sensitive enough to respect that.

Misdee, can I ask why you don't support NOK having no say If somebody has signed a register?

I ask as I am on the register , I carry a card and I feel very strongly about donating my organs If possible. However I know that if the situation ever occurred that my parents would override my wishes and not give consent. It's my body and if I want my organs donating then that should be final IMO.

Icedgem, because as much as I know my wishes and what I want, I also have to respect the wishes of those I would leave behind. My parents are of a different religion. They don't agree with blood transfusions. However I donate blood. I don't discuss that with them as I know their views on it. I know they wouldn't donate their organs. So even if they hadn't opted out (older generation, mum has had a stroke ) I would say no for them.
Dh would donate mine, as would the children if dh wasn't about to make that decision. I don't presume that all families have had close experience of organ donation like we have, and until then I will try and respect both the living and the dead.

What a terrible, heartbreaking thread. I've cried all through it at the losses described, the memory of my daughter, and the fear of losing another child.

I'm so sorry for all you who have suffered.

lweji - when Gabrielle died, I had no usual parental control. Couldn't choose her birth, couldn't bring her home, choose her nappies, her christening, her school, her stories, couldn't keep her drawings, her teeth, her anything. Don't get to see her graduate, get married, or have kids of her won.

The tiny things I did have control over, that I could keep, naturally took on uber importance. They had to be enough to last me a lifetime. You get to make memories with your children every day. My memories are contained in a 12inchsq box in my wardrobe. So knowing I have her ashes, knowing in some tiny way she is still with me, helps a tiny bit. Knowing I chose her urn and her first and only dress, helps me a tiny bit. I'll never choose another dress for her.

That box is the most treasured item in this house, and living beings aside, it's the first thing I'd save in a fire. I have no other link to my child, can you understand that? No memories of her laughing or talking or cuddling me. I never even got to hear her voice or see her eyes. Can you see why these things take on such importance?

You probably know your kids are upstairs in their beds, or at school/uni/work whatever. How awful for a mother to be denied that knowledge after their child dies. Why would you want that for someone who has already lost so much?

expat + Mrs d v I couldn't agree more with you.