To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

Actually, somewheresomehow, according to the Human Tissue Act, when a person dies in hospital, the body belongs to the hospital administration, so technically, legally the state can decide. I believe it is this act that allows for a post mortem if the medical profession feel one is necessary, even if this is against the next of kin's wishes
In the Human Tissue Act (2004)? Can you clarify? And I believe that legally enforceable post mortems are the remit of a coroner, not a hospital trust.

And on further reflection discussion with husband who ensures compliance with HTA in a major hospital trust the entire premise of the Human Tissue Act (2004) is to definewhat one cannot do without consent. The HTA was enacted because medics thought they owned bodies (Alder Hey and Bristol - pathologists takign organs without consent). It's the very opposite of what you assert.

I think I have made a mistake - I was reading an article referring to the 1961 Human Tissue Act - I did look to see if there had been amendments, but missed the 2004 Act - that was stupid of me, and I am grateful to MaidOfStars for making me aware of this.

I apologise for misleading everyone - and for not doing my research properly.

Someone said it's like asking someone to die so the others can live. That's one thing I do struggle with.
We live with someone else's heart keeping my family together. Some other family is bereaved and mine is whole. The other family misses their loved one and a small part of them resides in my husbands chest. Their lives changed that day by losing their loved one, yet they saved our family. They have given us so much in an organ donation.
Waiting was the worst. Knowing that someone had to die so that dh had a chance of living was awful. I didn't want someone else to die. I didn't want to hope the phone would ring because it meant that another family would be hurting so badly. I didn't want them to be in so much emotional and physical pain as they grieved.

Dh donor died the day before his transplant (the op started just after midnight). So every year we remember his donor one day, and celebrate Peters new life the following. Every milestone we raise a toast to them as well. Every celebration, every day. You don't get a transplant and then never think of the donor and their family ever again, you can't. It's not possible.

I'm not sure if I agree with opt-in, I can understand why people might feel uncomfortable with that.

However, I certainly think that if you are a registered organ donor your relatives should not be able to override that. I've carried a donor card since I was old enough to do so.

Sorry I mean opt-out! WHY doesn't Mumsnet have an edit function?

Sorry, haven't read the full thread.

It is true that the baby in this case could not consent to organ donation. However, she was also unable to consent to her organs being wasted and other people being denied the chance to benefit from them.

I think allowing healthy organs to die in a brain dead person is a crime.

Not ok to take them out and use them but ok to allow them to decompose or burn !

Not something that's easy to think about but ridiculous to deny a person a lifeline because you re squeamish .

If you or your child needed an organ I bet you would take one.

As the mother of a very recent recipient of a kidney transplant, I can very much understand how difficult it would be for a parent to agree to their child being a donor.
I'm looking at my little 3 yr old now and my stomach hurts just tinkling about it.
I think daily about ds donors, so does he.
The decision is probably one if the most difficult decisions a person can make and I really don't think anyone can say what they would do unless they've been there.

Its highly unlikely OP would refuse transplant for her own child if it was desperately needed based on the idea that the child who died was not able to consent. OP have you listened to what you're saying?

It's such a precious gift to give someone their life back at a time when you're experiencing such a tragic loss. I have infinite respect for the parents.

My son died coming up 10 years ago, if I could have donated his organs, I would have, it would have given me great comfort to know a part of him lived on....

So sorry to hear about your poor dd xxx :( Its a pain no one should ever feel to lose a child!

Its a completely personal thing to everyone, and that is why I agree with everyone's opinion, but its not up to us to comment on other people's choices.

Crje - it's not about squeamishness - it's about huge and unimaginable pain - unimaginable for those of us who have not had to go through it, that is. Calling it squeamishness, as though it is on a par with not wanting to clean up vomit, pick up a worm, or clean an infected wound, seriously belittles the pain these people are suffering.

TBH, that someone wastes their life panicking about where ashes are is not understandable to me. It sounds like that someone needs counselling to let go.
For me it's important that I remember my loved ones and the times we shared together. Not the bodies, organs, ashes, or whatever.
I carry the loved ones that have died in my heart. Not in an urn, or a grave.

Where you have ashes, most of the body has evaporated or gone in smoke. Where you bury the body, most of it is decomposed by bacteria and worms. Body matter is recycled from dead bodies, as well as from living bodies.
I don't think it's actually healthy to get so attached to matter that is no longer living to the point of waking up in sweat, or condemning parents for allowing a transplant.

'Which is why, despite being a fierce supporter of organ donation, I would never accuse a parent of being selfish or squeamish for not being able to make that choice.'

Very true.

Mrs and I both know people who were able to give up their children's organs and decided to do so (it wasn't possible for Mrs's or my daughter as they had leukaemia) and how their goodbye to their children differs from ours.

It's honestly quite horrid to think that others, who have no experience of child loss, label and judge such parents as selfish, criminal and in any way complicit in the deaths of other people.

No one has condemned anyone for allowing a transplant.

Your ignorance of child bereavement is astounding, Lweji. Nice personal jibe at Mrs, too, who watched her only daughter suffer for 2 years and took her home to die.

Thankfully, being the compassionate and wonderful person she is, Mrs has been a great support to several of us on MN who have lost our children, too, since her own lovely daughter died.

We have all had counselling, but any counsellor who works towards a parent 'letting go' of their dead child should be reported. Fortunately, they learn in training that this is an unattainable goal when it comes to child loss.

I am very sorry for your loss, Jessica. My daughter died in July, 2012, age 9, of pneumonia following allogenic stem cell transplant for treatment of her leukaemia.

SDTG, thanks for explaining better than I have.

I can't believe some of the comments on this thread. I really can't. Such lack of compassion in the face of posters real life 'stories'. Some of you really, really need to take a good hard look at yourselves and engage your brain before posting.

OP. A thought for the future. With a non personal/outing post, if you can't post it under your regular posting name, you probably shouldn't post it at all. If you don't have a regular posting name, then it's not the way to start on a forum.

Im close to someone who lost her 12 yr old to cystic fibrosis .
Her death was avoidable

As I type my best friend is dying - she has 5 -6 weeks to live( brain cancer)
It's raw and awful and I'm very aware of how desperate death is .

I would ,without a doubt give consent for any part of me or my kids to save someone's life

I believe more strongly in keeping a person alive than keeping a deceased person whole.

Sorry for your losses

My sister had two liver transplants, and died waiting for a third. We are enormously grateful to the families who allowed their loved ones organs to be used at a time of bereavement. But we don't think someone is selfish because they choose not to allow donation. When you have lost someone you love, you have to make a decision that is right for you, at that time.

'I would ,without a doubt give consent for any part of me or my kids to save someone's life'

With all due respect, crje, unless you have been in that situation yourself, it is impossible to know and beyond the pale to judge such a parent.

I haven't myself as it was never an option for our daughter to be an organ or tissue donor, but I do know what it is like and how it feels for it to be my child who is to die.