To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

I donated my father's organs after his death, and the hospital dealt with it very sensitively. The question was asked with a counselor/social worker (not sure their exact job title) present that I could have spoken with before making a decision, and there was no pressure at all. I knew his wishes, so even if I had not wanted to go ahead I would have respected his choice. The doctor said that a lot of people didn't know what their loved one wanted, so they often said no because of it. It's a conversation everyone should have with their families to let them know their wishes.

I was already on the organ donor register, but this thread inspired me to talk to my power of attorney and remind them of my decision. I've also signed up for the bone marrow/stem cell register and have an appointment next week to have blood collected and go through the application for that.

If the worst were to happen to one of my children I would not hesitate to donate their organs - it would mean that I was sparing other parents from the agony of losing a child.

DH lost his 4 week old to SIDS before we met and often when this subject came up said he would consent to his child's organs being donated because it would have stopped another child dying and another set of parents the agony of burying a child.

My friends daughter had a transplant as a baby. Another baby must have died to enable this to happen. Those parents gave the greatest gift and without it my friends daughter would not be here. I only hope this has brought them some comfort over the years.

It's thanks to people like the babies parents, which means chikdrens lives can be saved.

EBearhug I have just moved and changed GP's and the organ donor form was part of the registration form. When I registered new born DD with the GP it was part of the form too so I think GP practices are starting to ask as standard.

It could be - it's probably about 8 years since I registered with mine, and about 2 since I had an appointment.

At the risk of drifting off topic, but I see some donor experts have posted, can anyone explain to me, my DM, and MrsLH what the point of the donor registration scheme is ?

No really.

The reason we ask is that is seems rather pointless to carefully recruit and record all these potential donors, if - when it comes to crunch time - the final say is with the next of kin, whose decision is final irrespective of what the deceased wanted when alive. Seem a total waste of resources from our viewpoint, and no one we've asked has ever really explained.

(We write as all 3 being signed up for donating absolutely any and everything)

Perhaps it means the medical staff can tell the family the dead person's decision to go on the register, because they may not have actually discussed it and not know what the person would want.

I believe there is the option to go on the register when you apply for a driving licence, but I'm not sure?

projectbabyweight

My "experience" is from watching documentaries about organ donation where they stated that one of the biggest bars to organ donation was hospital staff being unwilling/unable/unprepared/untrained to ask relatives about donation.

With me screaming at the screen "What's the point of a register then ?"

As I said, I'm on it for everything (plus the bone marrow register). But it seems a supreme exercise in futility if it's not consulted when I die, or my relatives wishes can trump it.

It means that the next of kin has clear guidance on the person's wishes, Lurking - and I think it also makes it easier for medical staff to approach the relatives (because they know they are following the person's wishes).

My point last night is that, if the next of kin was utterly opposed to their relative's organs being donated, this wouldn't happen - but I would guess that, in the majority of cases, people are willing to abide by their relative's decision to donate.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

you'd think so, but there was no indication in the documentaries that this happened. Not a single one of the staff interviewed mentioned consulting any register before they went to talk to the relatives. And if there is any point to the register (which I doubt) then surely the simplest and least controversial measure that could be taken before we start talking "opt out rather than opt in", is to simply pass a law that in the event of a persons death, their wishes as expressed via the register are final. No need to ask relatives at all. Easier all round.

Or am I missing something here ?

To put it another way.

Quite a few people on this thread have stated they have signed the organ donor register. How would they feel, if in the event of their death, their relatives were able to ignore their wishes ? Would they feel there's any point in the scheme.

I apologise for keeping at this, but since this has become quite a free flowing discussion, it seems right somehow.

Lurking - the NHSBT information on the organ donor register says that it allows medical staff to know someone's wishes, re. organ donation, so I assume that the staff would check the register if they had a patient who could potentially be a donor.

Logic dictates that the register must be used (and I can't see any other way it would be used, other than medical staff checking to see if someone is registered, before approaching their next of kin) - otherwise there would be no point in funding it.

Logic and the NHS aren't necessarily natural bedfellows .

Maybe I should start a petition that the wishes recorded on the register are the only thing that need to be consulted before removing any organs ?

No - but sadly cost-cutting and the NHS are - so if no-one ever consulted the register, it would have been cut, I am sure.

Sorry - posted too soon.

From my reading of the NHS website, it seems that most people consent to organ donation, if their relative is already on the register (or has already expressed their wish to donate) - it is only a small number of people who refuse to donate, in the face of their relative's wish to do so.

In those cases, I think it would cause extra trauma and grief at an already difficult time, and would be counterproductive for organ donation as a whole.

The RCGP article I skimmed yesterday said that, even in countries with an opt-out policy, they don't take organs from people whose relatives object.

When a patient is looking like they will not survive their injuries, the nursing team contact the Specialist Nurses for Organ Donation (SNOD) team who are based in hospitals around the country. When the SNODs arrive, they look at the history of the patient to see if they would be suitable to donate. If they are suitable, the SNOD team access the national organ donor register to see if the patient is registered and if there are any restrictions (for example, some people stipulate that they would not wish their corneas or heart to be donated or they want solid organs only donated as opposed to skin/tendons etc).

Bloods from the patient can be sent for tissue typing at this point at this process can sometimes be quite lengthy.

At this point, the SNOD, bedside nurse and Consultant are working hard with the relatives if the patient to help them come to terms with the death of their loved one. Brain stem testing is explained and what the likely outcome will be (brain stem testing is only carried out when expert doctors are reasonably sure what the outcome will be and criteria is met - for example, sedation has been off for a length of time that it would be out of the patient's system, electrolytes are within normal parameters and the patient's temperature and blood glucose are normal).

Organ donation and the job role of the SNOD team are NOT disclosed at this time - the concept of "helping someone after death" is only ever introduced once the family members are accepting of their loved one's imminent death.

Once the family are accepting of the death, the SNOD team get together with the family, nurse and consultant again to introduce the notion of organ donation - at this point they may mention that the patient is on the organ donor register. The family are supported with their decision and their decision is respected regardless of their final decision. I mentioned up thread that the family are the decision makers as they are the ones who have to carry on with their lives after their family member has gone. If the family decide not to donate, the role if the SNOD moves to bereavement care - they don't just walk away from the family if the answer is no.

I have known many occasions where families have decided not to donate despite the individual being on the register which is why it is very important to talk to your family members about your wishes as well as being on the register. You would be amazed at the number of families who over the course of a 40/50 year old marriage have genuinely never discussed their wishes.

Kittymum03

Lurking-but surely if you were a close family,but hadn't discussed organ donation,then being told your,say 18 year old child,is not only dead,but is having their organs removed weather you like it or not,is a bit harsh?

18 years is adult - old enough to sign a register in your own capacity. That's where the donors wishes are recorded. Anything else is hearsay.

I'm not advocating treating every deceased as a donor - just those that have taken the time and thought to put their name onto the donor register.

Again, I apologise if this isn't appropriate. But it seems to me to be a waste of time, effort and leaflets, if all putting your name on a register means is your NOK get a chance to ignore your wishes when you were alive.

"if you were a close family,but hadn't discussed organ donation,then being told your,say 18 year old child,is not only dead,but is having their organs removed weather you like it or not,is a bit harsh?"

I don't think it would be harsh at all to be told that, as my 18 year old daughter had made the decision to be on the organ donor register, her organs were being donated as per her wishes. It's a decision she made.

I make a point of saying to my family, every time there's an organ donation item on the news, "you know I want to donate my organs if something happens to me, don't you?"

While I'm here, can I point people at the Little Yellow Duck Project?

thelittleyellowduckproject.org/

It's an awareness campaign about donating blood, bone marrow, tissue, organs and so on. When you're in shock after a loved one has died isn't really the best time to encounter organ donation as a concept for the very first time...

SDTG . i realise people are brain dead when organs are taken .but it still does,nt get away from the fact the patient is still warm on a life support before they are taken to theatre .so in most bereaved folks minds there is still a chance .yes i believe the the utmost respect is given to the patient .but still would i mind if they took my organs NO .would i let them take my child,s god forbid .honestly NO

Many hospitals have a policy of asking every bereaved family about donation to ensure that everyone gets the choice.

Even if a patient has already died or is not suitable to be a "heart beating" donor, other tissues such as skin, tendons and bone can be offered to improve the lives other of people such as those with burns. The families who feel able to consider this gift are contacted the following day.

Many End of Life documents have a compulsory section on tissue donation - it seems that despite these policies and documents, many families are still not given the choice.

Aprilanne, would you refuse an organ donation for yourself or your child, if one was required?