To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

One of the most heartbreaking things about my dgrandma's death - 5 years ago tomorrow - was that, due to timing, her organs couldn't be used for transplant.

We lost her on the operating table and she basically became brain dead. There was no hope, the damage was just too severe. But i wish to God someone had been able to benefit. Someone else's life could have been saved. Sadly it wasn't to be

And yes - I would donate my childrens' organs without hesitation. It would be letting a tiny ray of hope shine out of such grief.

I think it was an absolutely lovely thing to for them to do: to make this utterly selfless decision at what must be such a beyond-traumatic time for them. For me, it would be an honour and a privilege to be able to help others in this way when I am gone. So many people have been helped to stay alive through organic donation - thank the stars for modern medicine, that's what I say.

I think it is a totally selfless act to be able to donate or to to decide to donate a loved ones organs. I'm on the list, thanks in part to Peters journey. When my dh and my dad died, neither could donate due to their illness but I thought about it at the time and had they had healthy organs, it would have been a really tough decision though I'm pretty certain I would have given consent. It would have been really hard though. What a blessing for the lives that have been saved. So yabu

Donors do not need to be still alive to donate their organs - in fact donors are always legally dead before donating.

There are 2 different types of donation - donation following brain stem death, where the patient has brain stem testing carried out by highly qualified doctors to confirm death following a brain injury. The patient's legal time of death is the time of the first set of tests. In this case, organs including lungs and heart can be donated as they are still receiving vital oxygen and nutrients which are required in order to be transplanted.

The other type of donation is donation following cardiac (heart) death. This is where it is deemed that no more can medically be done to save the patient and life saving support is withdrawn. If the patient proceeds to asystole (where the heart stops) within a specified timeframe other organs, as in the case of this baby can be transplanted.

Organ donation is a very emotive subject and there is a massive gap in education and beliefs.

It is true that no one can consent for another adult but even if you were registered on the donor list and carried a donor card, teams would not go against the wishes of your family if they decline. After all, it is the families left behind who have to live with their decision, what ever that may be.

It is an exceptionally brave decision to make and I have the upmost respect for families who consider donation, regardless of their final decision.

Thanks for your responses, it's always interesting when people think differently from you.

There's no need to be insulting towards me though. I'm just thinking something through.

Are people actually this backwards? It astounds me that people that think like this exist, let alone have the brain power to open a computer and type.

It's not an issue of the child's organs being taken without the consent of the parents, the parents were happy for it to happen and gave consent.

Basically what the OP is saying is that because a child can't give consent there organs should automatically be banned from transplant regardless of the wishes of the parents. So in this case as well as the baby in question dying in all likelihood several other people on the organ donation list would die to because the OP believes that her squeamishness should be legally imposed on other people. And she would like to deny the parents the opportunity to know that despite the tragedy of what's happened to their child they had been given the opportunity to help several other parents facing the death of their child too.

I'm absolutely horrified that somebody would read about this sequence of events and their reaction would be to log on to Mumsnet to slag the parents off for 'carving up their child'.

OP, get some empathy and think about how insensitive and nasty your post is. It's disgusted me quite frankly, more than anything I've ever seen on Mumsnet.

I wouldn't donate mine or my family's organs but I agree with others. Someone so young cannot offer consent.

YAB V U

Of course a minor needs their parents to make that decision on their behalf - as with all medical procedures , and indeed absolutely everything that happens to them as a tiny baby. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

You are also being very hurtful with your choice of words "carving up a baby" indeed - how offensive is that ?

A lot of very loving, thoughtful and humane people would feel that, if their baby weren't able to live, then they would get some consolation from the fact that at least she had allowed several other children to live - I don't believe you can't see that, and think this thread very goady indeed.

"Carving her up for bits"

On what planet is that an OK thing to say?

I donated one of my childrens organs, I couldn't donate my other childs, but I would have. I find the fact that you call it 'carving up' and think I'm unethical is fucking disgusting.

Its the hardest choice I ever made, the hardest thing I ever did, but lives were saved/enhanced by my choice and my child was already gone.

Donating organs or not wouldn't have changed a thing for me or my baby.

You wouldn't think it unethical if it was your child waiting for an organ. You would be hoping that someone would make the choice I did.

In the face of a personal tragedy, those parents have made a selfless decision. Yes, their baby couldn't make a decision, but as others have said, every time a baby has medical treatment, it is done without the baby's consent.

The baby's body will have been treated with respect and care. And somewhere out there are babies who have been given a chance of life. I can only thank the parents on behalf of all of those who have known a family member who has been given an organ.

I don't really understand the people saying it would be a hard decision to donate their loved ones' organs though - just how profound is your emotional bond to somebody else's kidneys?

Eyes I understand - that would be harder to wrap my head around, but much as I love my husband, his heart and liver aren't that big a part of my feelings for him, so donating them on his behalf wouldn't be an issue.

wales is moving towards an opt-out system, which I think is great.

I think what the parents have done is a beautiful tribute to their baby, and have given the gift of life to others.

Ohfourfoxache same with my mum, she had a blood disease and they couldn't use any of her organs. Like you, my family would really have liked a bit of her to go on and help someone. She'd always said she'd want to donate as well.

DH and I have just been emailing each other about this story.

Our DS died at 6 hours old after complications with labour starved him of oxygen. We were both in tears reading this story, as it sounds very similar to our situation.

We both agreed that we would have loved, more than anything, to have been able to donate some of his organs. He spent his very short life in the NeoNatal Unit at the hospital, and it would have been wonderful to know that we might have been able to help a baby in another cot go home with his or her parents, and save them going through the same pain that were going through.

I do see that we need to balance medical pragmatism about addressing the shortage of donated organs, with the ethical considerations you mention, OP, but I don't agree with your point of view. Or your phrasing.

YABU - Babies and young children can never consent to anything, even if they are not brain dead.
So by your logic, this group should never donate - nor, therefore, ever RECEIVE - organs.

It may not appeal to you... fine, you don't have to consent to your own child being a donor. Would you allow your child to receive a donated organ, though?

MoanCollins There's no need to attack me personally for expressing another side of an ethical question. I think it's pretty backwards not to be able to take part in a debate without becoming enraged by hearing an opposing view.

Anyway, thanks everyone. It's interesting to see how all bar one of your responses thinks I am BU. I'm not usually out of step with the general consensus.

Anyone who wouldn't do war their own or a loved one's organs has, I hope made it very clear by advanced directive that they will not consent to receive a transplant either? In reality, of course, transplantation is very rarely an emergency procedure, there will be plenty of time for them to make their wishes clear.

I have reported your opening post and asked for your extremely crass phrase to be edited out.

Yes, "carving up for parts" was a poor expression. I'm sorry for putting it that way on here.

ineedtogetthisout I am in awe of you, you ahve done a wonderful thing in the midst of an unimaginable situation.

When diagnosed with an anencelphalic baby (after multiple miscarriages) my first question was could I carry to term and donate the baby's organs if they were suitable. At the time (and possibly still now), that was viewed as impossible as newborn donors weren't aloowed. The fact that nothing good could come of the pregnancy made a bad situation worse. I had a termination in the end.

I think you are BU
I agree with an opt out system of organ donation, I also believe if a person opts out they should not be eligible to receive a donated organ

Thanks Marcipex I've never reported anyone's post. I just read, tut and move on. But thanks for doing that for me.

The difficulties are that people see this in such different ways.
It would seem that these parents felt they needed someone to benefit from what for them has been a tragic situation.
Others would felt that to make the decision to donate organs would deepen their feeling of loss.
Everyone's grief is different and there is no right or wrong answer.
What should be respected is the parents decision to do what they felt was the right thing for their family. I hope their choice brings them some peace at a very difficult time.