To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

Children cannot consent to anything medical, afaik - parents always consent on their behalf. That applies to anything from a general anaesthetic to organ donation.

A newborn baby doesn't have the capacity to make decisions so their parents make them on the baby's behalf. In the same way that if an adult dies with no organ donation decision made the relatives can consent.

You've clearly never known anyone waiting for an organ. IMO organ donation should be "opt-out" and if you opt out of donating, you opt out of receiving too. It is criminal how many healthy organs are buried or cremated.

But a baby cannot give consent. The parents always make their medical decisions.

And what a beautiful, selfless thing to do.

But how can a baby give consent?

Turn it around. If your newborn needed immediate surgery, would you be happy if the surgeon said they could not operate without the babies consent?

Don't be silly.

It is emotive, but those parents have done the most wonderful thing and to pick holes in their ethics is just sad.

And I agree with GreenFizzyWater... It should be opt out.

I think I understand what you're asking and I think yabu - how would you get consent from a baby/toddler/child who is unable to speak or understand the implications?

I see it the same way as anything else I give consent to as a parent. Would you refuse surgery on a baby who needs open heart surgery (as my dc4 came close to) because a 3month old baby can't give consent?

Parents always consent, as not says.

I think that you're picturing it in a very unpsetting way. Donors may be 'alive,' but they're brain dead - the baby, very sadly, was not alive in any meaningful, feeling sense.

I do know what you mean, and I think probably no-one really likes the idea of organ donation, but it does save lives.

YABU to refer to organ donation as 'carving up for bits'. What a disgustingly provocative way to talk about it.

If you don't agree with the concept, then don't donate your or your child's organs. But don't suggest the parents were somehow being negligent or disrespectful to the baby. A lot of people, me included, would find an awful lot of comfort that a life lives on by helping others. Much more so than being turned into worm food or fire wood.

And the final decision for organ donation rests with the next of kin, not the donor. If you have been vehemently opposed to it your entire life, but your next of kin consents, then you too could get 'carved up for bits'. Equally, you might be hugely in favour but your next of kin can refuse.

When I heard this on the news I didn't think it was ethically right.

What crockney said. Horrible to think about, but if my dd needed an organ donation, I'd move heaven and earth to make it happen, so surely it then makes sense that I would also agree to donation should the worst happen?

The way you're approaching this, OP, is probably why more organ donation doesn't happen.

If that is how you feel, would you refuse a donor organ from anyone too young to consent for your own baby, even if it meant that your baby died?

I think you are 100% wrong by the way.

consent can only be given if the person understands or is of an age where their consent counts or if the person is able to consent. if that can't happen then next of kin decide. that doesn't just go for babies and children

I'm very sorry for the parents' loss and what a brave and truly kind and selfless decision they have made. I hope in the future it brings them.immense comfort.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

But presumably it would be ok to receive them? Or not?

If your newborn needed immediate surgery, would you be happy if the surgeon said they could not operate without the babies consent?

This.

Personally, I am disgusted at your take on the story. When I heard it on the news I felt tears in my eyes and thought how wonderful and selfless that baby's parents were and how strong they were to be able to make that decision. Good on them!

If I remember correctly, it's quite rare that the individual makes final choice about organ donation anyway - its normal that it's the next of kin, I believe.

I think what those parents did was amazing - not sure if I could do it, but it means that something good has come from a terrible tragedy.

I think its very sad that newborn baby died and the parents were brave to make the decision to donate the baby's organs. I think you forget that the baby was brain dead. It is just a body as its spirit has gone. A dead baby cannot decide whether to be cremated or buried. In the same way it cannot make the decision whether to donate organs.

Following your logic no child should ever recieve an organ transplant. If a teenager dies in an accident the parents have to consent to organ donation. What is the difference between consenting to donating the organs of a thirteen year old and a newborn baby?

Ultimately the decision whether or not to donate organs always rests with the living, not the dead. Even if you've made your feelings clear your surviving next of kin could override your wishes, if they so wished. And how could a baby/child ever give consent?

I think your use of the phrase "carving her up for parts" is disrespectful in the extreme to all families who have been in the awful position of having to make this decision, by the way.

'Carving her up for parts' is an awful way of putting it. The parents have done an amazing thing at what is a devastating time for them. Don't diminish it with your sniping.

The death of a baby is a terrible thing but using her organs to give others the chance of life seems to me to be a wonderful tribute. For me it's the death which is the tragic part, the idea of what happens to the body afterwards being burnt, buried, autopsied or donated is secondary to the horrors of the loss. From what you've said the death was inevitable and this was the best choice her parents' felt they could make in what must be the most awful of circumstances. I think this is a very personal choice and I wouldn't judge anyone negatively whether they decided for or against donating their precious child's organs. However put yourself in the position of the recipients and their families, would you feel differently then?

The parents in this case are truly amazing people.

OP, you could perhaps do some reading on ethics. Tony Bland is a good case to start on Altho different because he would probably have had capacity to consent. The legalities of whose best interests are represented when a patient is brain dead are very interesting.

YABU to post such emotive phrases, in fact, you don't seem to have engaged your brain hugely.

As pp said, should we just let babies and children die because they can't consent to anything? It doesn't work like that.

But if your child at birth needed donated organs to survive would you have said no on moral grounds or ripped their arm off?

Both my children (3 and 4 months) are on the organ donor register. I hope I never have to invoke it but I hope I'm strong enough to do just that if needed.

I think that burying an otherwise healthy (!) person with all of their organs intact when there are people dying for want of healthy organs is a serious ethical issue.

Organ donation should be an opt-out (and a full opt out - opting out of donating = opting out of receiving).

I think what those parents did was amazing - not sure if I could do it, but it means that something good has come from a terrible tragedy.

Pootles If you think it's amazing, why couldn't you do it?