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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

438 replies

BabyX · 20/01/2015 13:20

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

OP posts:
ShipwreckedAndComatose · 20/01/2015 13:53

shabbs, that's a very touching story, I am sorry for your loss and thank you for sharing your experience

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 20/01/2015 13:54

shabbs I'm so sorry for your loss, and what a kind and thoughtful boy your DS3 was x x

DoJo · 20/01/2015 13:54

There's no need to attack me personally for expressing another side of an ethical question.

I think the attacks stem from the way in which you worded it. You have to understand that for someone who has chosen to donate their child's organs, describing it as 'carving up for parts' would be horrendously insensitive and incredibly insulting.

ILovePud · 20/01/2015 13:55

shabbs what a terrible thing to have happened, I'm so sorry. What an amazing boy and what an amazing thing that he and you did, I'm glad that you found out about those people his kindness had helped (though that word doesn't seem adequate when you're talking about restoring someone's sight).

QuintlessShadows · 20/01/2015 13:55

Shabbs Flowers

misdee · 20/01/2015 13:55

My husband has had a heart transplant. Because of that I have a LOT of contact with people in the transplant community. This is a major first as organs for small babies have previously come from outside the UK.

Everything is done with respect. These parents deserve our respect and sympathy for doing something amazing. And it is amazing. Everyday I am still thankful for the heart in my husbands chest. For the lives they helped create, Sophie, Steven, Katie and #7 due this spring. The children of mine who by rights shouldn't exist.

The parents of the baby whose organs it donated are part of our community. And I will respect them forever.

Original poster
BabyX · 20/01/2015 13:57

Dojo I have already said I regret that turn of phrase. You can highlight the OP's comments you know. Makes it easier to follow the thread.

OP posts:
Ohfourfoxache · 20/01/2015 13:57

Thanks to everyone who has been affected - there are so many brave and selfless people on this thread xx

MauriceTheCat · 20/01/2015 13:57

My SIL asked me to post as she is a little upset atm. 10 years ago my 14 month old needed a kidney, this was made possible by a father making such a decision after his two year old and wife were killed whilst she was driving.

His decisions saved or improved 5 lives by donating from his wife and child's organs. including my niece. I know he took great comfort from this decision.

I genuinely hope none of you ever in your family, have to go through the heart breaking daily wait for an organ as it destroys all of your lives. But I think you may find that if it was a choice on accepting an organ from another, possibly a child or letting a child of yours die you may change your mind.

DelGirl · 20/01/2015 13:58

Notnaanbread
Have you been in the position of making that choice of whether to donate your loved ones organs? With respect, if not, then you can't honestly know how you'd feel.

shabbs · 20/01/2015 13:59

I decided, just before Xmas, that I would like to know what had happened. Emailed the organ donor people and said I didnt need names and address - just would like to know if DS3 had helped someone. It took them a couple of weeks but I got the most beautiful email back - it said that a 15 year old girl and a 70 year old man had been given the corneas - both transplants had been successful and given both people sight for the first time. DS3 would have been over the moon to know that.

I hope, wherever he is, not sure I believe in heaven anymore....I hope he has the biggest willy that anyone has ever seen Grin

He was a crazy, funny little lad - who never stopped teasing and laughing xxxxx

Thank you all for your kind comments xxx

BackforGood · 20/01/2015 14:00

OP

People have been incredibly restrained in not being a lot ruder, considering your awful choice of language in your OP

I've been on MN for donkeys years and am on here a lot, and most subjects will stand up to a good debate, but the title and opening post have to set the tone.

You've been extremely offensive, and I'm amazed you've not been insulted a lot more, tbh.

CallMeExhausted · 20/01/2015 14:01

When my beautiful and perfect daughter in my eyes, of course died at 6 weeks old, the last thing we could do in her honour was donate her organs.

Despite her loss, several other babies lived.

The baby in question here was loved dearly by its parents. They made the decision to donate the organs. This was not done without consent newborn babies, even ones that are neurologically intact, are not capable of informed consent. You are simple minded to think otherwise.

How utterly foul of you to dare suggest she was "carved up for parts". I sincerely hope you never have a child waiting for a heart, lungs or a liver, transplants without which, the patient WILL die. Frankly, if you do, I hope you reconsider this selfish and simple minded stance. If you do not, then you will have to refuse any organ offered to you, as its original owner will not have been in a state to consent.

Frankly, to be honest, I hope you personally ARE in a situation where you require an organ - and suffer horrendously as a result. The donor, after all, won't be able to personally provide consent.

Because, frankly, organ donation does not lie in the decisions of the donor, but in the kindness and selflessness of the next of kin, during what is, without a doubt, likely the most difficult time of their lives.

I guess you don't consent on behalf of your child requiring surgical intervention, either? Vaccinations? Regular medical care?

NeedABumChange · 20/01/2015 14:02

Quite possible the most ridiculous thread ever. Seriously? When do babies ever consent to anything. They can't. They don't. Parents have the right of consent.

These parents did the right thing . Knowing a love ones death can bring back quality of life for someone else can bring huge comfort. My best mates mother died but out of her death lives were saved and a 17year old girl had her sight restored.

They lost their baby but they've saved others. How can you even try to critise them?

angelos02 · 20/01/2015 14:02

So it does not, and should not, matter whether you would donate

Of course it should matter. If it is something you don't agree with then it is something you don't agree with. You can't have it both ways. Well in reality you can but I personally don't think that is the way it should be.

EBearhug · 20/01/2015 14:03

Some people find it a comfort to know that part of their child will be living on in someone else, that it hasn't all been in vain.

I agree with an opt-out system. I also think families should talk about these things when it's not time for a critical decision. My closest family know I carry a donor card and would want my wishes to be followed, and I know their wishes, too.

Knowing how my mother felt about giving and receiving organs made some of the decisions my sister and I had to make when she was in intensive care that bit easier, because we knew her opinions about it all.

Babies can't express their wishes, though, or even comprehend the situation, but parents always have to make decisions for them and consent to treatment on their behalf, so I don't see organ donation as any different. I think things like donation should be discussed with older children (e.g. in response to a news story or filling in a donor card or when giving blood or something, rather than totally out of the blue,) so it's something children become comfortable with thinking about and can express their own views on it - obviously you'd hope never to have to be in the position of needing to consider their wishes, but unfortunately, a few families will have to.

googoodolly · 20/01/2015 14:05

Your OP makes no sense, as babies/toddlers etc. can't make their own medical decisions anyway. Children have to be deemed competent under the Gillick system before they're allowed to decide their treatment.

So, even if people HAD to consent before donation, it wouldn't have made a difference in this case because the parents make that decision for their children regardless of circumstance.

I hope everyone who is willing to accept an organ is willing to donate themselves. If I died tomorrow, I would love to think my death could help someone else live another 1/10/20 years. What a gift to leave behind.

Kewcumber · 20/01/2015 14:05

As others have noted if you are disapproving of these parents selfish actions in donating I feel sure that you would decline an organ for one of your children should the need arise. It's only fair.

I don't need to be rude to you about your peculiar view of this nightmarish situation for the parents involved - I think your post speaks loud and clear for itself.

CallMeExhausted · 20/01/2015 14:05

I apologise for the choppy nature of my response - I am understandably upset by your OP (and frankly see your "apology" as more of a backpedal after you were lambasted).

I do not, however, apologise for its content.

ILovePud · 20/01/2015 14:08

CallMeExausted what an amazing thing you did. Flowers

Kewcumber · 20/01/2015 14:09

Dojo I have already said I regret that turn of phrase

The fact you even thought it, never mind wrote it on a public forum of parents some bereaved, says rather a lot though.

Greydog · 20/01/2015 14:10

What a nasty little post the OP has made. Almost deliberately provocative.

Greythorne · 20/01/2015 14:11

OP
I think you have misunderstood the concept of consent.

Next of kin can consent to organ donation for adults who are sadly brain dead, even if they never consented themselves. It is not just organ donor card carriers who donate organs but people who never thought about it / never expressed a preference, if their NOK consents.

steppeinginto2015 · 20/01/2015 14:12

actually very few people consent themselves to organ donation.

Doctors will ask relatives about donation even if the person didn't carry a card, and many do donate. After all, the person who has died can no longer agree or disagree, it has to be the decision of the next of kin.

In fact, someone can choose organ donation and then their relatives can refuse, so the person's wishes aren't always taken into consideration.

Mammanat222 · 20/01/2015 14:12

I feel so strongly about organ donation that I'd be happy for it to become an 'opt out' system.

As for the case in question parental consent was given and that is how it works with a baby of that age. There is no debate about ethics in my mind. Well done to the courageous and selfless parents.