To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

tangential to this, did anyone read of the Chinese man who signed up as a stem cell donor, and was a hit for a UK child, 7 years old

www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-china-blog-30885546

"Humans. Not as bad as you'd think."

Oh, and there's no property in a dead body. No one "owns" it. Or ever did.

I can't see how a baby donating their organs is any different to an adult. They are not being harmed or being out in pain when they donate. They are saving a life, a life that wouldn't be able to be there because adult organs are too big for their little bodies.

My uncle died a few years ago and he was an organ donator. He donated part of his liver, his corneas and his skin. He was an amazing man.

Shabbs, your DS3 sounded like a very lovely boy. His story brought tears to my eyes.

Congratulations Misdee. I joined MN just after "pink Peter" but have read the threads. Amazing you're having a 7th!

That's a lovely story LurkingHusband thanks for linking, at the risk of sounding twee I'd call it heart-warming.

She was a newborn baby for goodness sake! Parents make the decisions for their children until a certain age, such as immunisations, schools, clothes, christenings etc. the poor little soul won't need her heart, liver, kidneys etc and maybe those parents gain a lot of comfort knowing that a little bit of their baby will live on.

And I'm slightly agog to know what you think the worse thing that happens to our bodies after we're dead might be a surgeon neatly removing a cornea, kidney etc.

I had a gall bladder removed once. No one described it as carving me up for parts. Or it is OK because my gall bladder was thrown away rather than reused?

I think the parents of the baby did an amazing thing, as did the posters who have poated to say thye donated their childs organs. At what must be the most difficult time of your life, to make a selfless decison to help others is soemthung i hope i have the strength to do should anythjng ever haooen to my children. All five madthings are registered as organ donors, its soemthign dp and i have discussed and we have talked about it with the children as thye have got older. Obviously i hope it is a choice i will never have to make, but if god forbid, i do then i hope that donating orgsns would mea somethjng good could come out of their death.

Rainicorn personally I think a 7th is just showing off!

I realise that donating stem cells is not quite the same as donating your child's organs, but I think that chinese gentleman is amazing going through all that hassle to help a little boy in a foreign country.

Thanks kewcumber ;)

1. Organs can only be taken (excluding living donation (e.g. parent donating one kidney)) if the donor is either

(a) brain dead (checked by two separate doctors using the same tests that would be applied whether or not the organs were being donated) but on a ventilator, or (b) in the case of kidneys, circulatory death (i.e. not on a ventilator) if they are removed within a few minutes.

1. Parents always have to consent to anything medical on behalf of their children. There's no concept of a newborn consenting to anything.

1. Under UK law what the deceased person wants to do has sod-all to do with it anyway. Once brain death is certified it's the next-of-kin who determines what happens and who has to consent, whether the person whose organs are being donated is six days old or sixty years old.

YABU to be indulging in sensationalist "Woooooah... you're ALIVE when they CUT YOU UP FOR BITS! ALIVE, I tell you..." claptrap.

And IMO if one of my children were to die it would be horrifying but the idea that (if donation were an option) I'd be quite content to let several other children whose lives could have been saved die out of a misplaced sense of squeamishness is also horrifying. I can't imagine wanting other parents to share in the misery of a child's death when I could have prevented it.

OP had you ever thought that as new parents, the mother may actually be on mumsnet or one of the many thousands of lurkers? Not to mention friends and family.

I really hope MN view this thread in the same way and delete. I would hate to think they could stumble across it.

Oooh, misdee, you're having #7? Congratulations!

Yes yves.

I don't like organ donation. I don't think I could have donated my children's organs. Equally, the thought of having a donor organ inside me, I find horrific. I'm not suffering from kidney failure though and I know people in desperate situations take desperate measures. A lot of the reason I don't like it is just down to squeamishness, the human body, to me, isn't something we should scour for spare parts, even if that can give somebody who would die a whole new life. I know this isn't a popular view.

I really feel for the parents of this donor baby and can't imagine what they must be going through. I hope the fact that they did donate their child's organs brings them some comfort.

Coming back to the main point of the thread, you seem to basically be saying that people unable to consent to medical procedures shouldn't have them. YABU.

Many congrats Misdee! I was only thinking about you t'other day.

Scour for spare parts

You are as much of a twat as the op.

Your view disgusts and upsets me OP.

I think It is morally and ethically wrong to withhold potentially lifesaving organs when they could give someone else the chance of life.

Oddly I have no problem with blood donation or stem cell and have donated myself (not stem cells, although I was on the register).

I just can't stand the thought of me heart or lungs or whatever being taken out, thrown away and somebody else's parts put in. At this point I'd defiantly rather die with my own body parts.

I think if we had an opt out system (which I'm not against) I don't know if I'd even opt out though. I would make my views known to my family (they know) and close my eyes and ears and hope for the best. What I don't know can't hurt me after all and once I'm dead I'm dead.

I hope he has the biggest willy anyone has ever seen

I'd also agree to an opt out system. Would simplify things so much.

At this point I'd defiantly rather die

I mean at this point in my life now, with the gift of good health. Who knows what I'd do and how my morals would change if I was suffering and in pain.

Congrats misdee and Peter. 7, wow. I'm inclined to agree with KC, I think you're showing off . Is it going to be dd5 or ds2? X

I have assisted at the surgery to remove donor organs - I was an operating theatre nurse - and I can promise BabyX that it was done in the most respectful and careful fashion.

Every single member of staff involved was deeply aware of, and grateful for the immense sacrifice that was being made. There was no 'carving up'.

Incidentally - saying you 'regret' a clumsy or ill-chosen phrase is NOT the same as acknowledging the hurt and offence it has caused, and apologising for it!

Given that you say you want to have a discussion, how are you going to respond to the points that people have raised here:

• that parents/the responsible adult always have to give consent for any medical or surgical procedure on a child, and if you did not accept their consent for organ donation, there would be no donor organs for small children. If you have a child, or children, and they were too young to consent to emergency surgery, would you refuse to consent to it on their behalf?

• that donation of your child's organs is selfless! because it involves the parents putting aside their own pain, in order to do something truly miraculous for strangers.

• that anyone who objects to organ donation from children who cannot consent for themselves, should not ever agree to receiving organ donation for their child, should they be unlucky enough to need one.

FWIW - I have also assisted at kidney transplant operations, and have seen for myself the miracle that occurs when the donor kidney is connected to the recipient's blood supply, and it pinks up and starts to produce urine - something that the recipient has been unable to do for years. There is a long road ahead, with recovery and the risk of rejection, but when it works, kidney donation frees the recipient from several days a week of dialysis.

Imagine that it is your baby whose kidneys have failed, who faces a lifetime of being tied to a dialysis machine - wouldn't you want your baby to receive a donor kidney, even though it came from a baby who had not consented to the donation themselves? Or would you refuse the kidney, and decide on your baby's behalf, that dialysis several times a week would be better than a normal life?

Not forgetting that you would be making a decision on your baby's behalf - ^which is what you are condemning these parents for doing - but worse, because their decision will have no consequences for their child's future, but yours would have immense and far reaching consequences for your child.

I mean dd6