To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

I think the parents if that baby have done a lovely and selfless thing. Some people can, others can't.

I personally think that's it's lovely that some small part of there baby will get to live on.

You might feel very differently if you were the mum sitting with a dying child waiting and hoping for a donation from another small child who has died in tragic circumstances, BabyX.

I remember following a thread on mumsnet, in which a young mum with a dying small child was doing just that ... waiting and hoping ... and I remember the comfort that many posters were desperately trying to give her during her wait for donation. Reading that heartbreaking thread made that side of donation all too real ... but the fact of the matter is that where such a dying child does receive such a donation which brings the chance of life, the harsh reality is that the donation became available because a child died.

Highly emotive, no matter which way you look at it, but it should be remembered that ... in the case of children ... it is always the parents who give the consent, it is not the child donor who does. The case you highlight is no different in that respect.

On that basis, while I think you are entitled to have a personal opinion that child organ donation is wrong (is that your opinion?), I think you are being unreasonable to say "donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue."

I don't think the argument that parents give consent to medical treatment can be used for parents giving consent to organ donation. Whatever the rights and wrongs are. Because medical procedure is for the good of the child receiving it. Whereas organ donation is an entirely different thing altogether and is entirely for the benefit of the recipient. I did not agree with new born babies' organs being used in this way.

I think this is possibly one of the most upsetting posts I have ever read on here.

I truely hope that I never find myself in a situation where I'd have to make a decision about a loved one's organ donation. If I did I'd only hope that I could be as selfless and brave as these wonderful parents have been. I hope their decision has brought them some comfort in what must be an awful time and they never have the misfortune to meet anyone with such awful views as OP and a few others on here.

For children who are too young to discuss and understand organ donation it is the decision of their parents or guardian to decide.
Once a child is old enough I believe it is responsible to have a chat with them about what they would like, the same way an adult should tell their next of kin what they would want.

This is why we have next of kins, so that they can make a decision based on the persons beliefs, wants and needs.

Out of interest has this thread prompted anyone to sign up to (or withdraw from ) the organ donor register ?

My friends son received an organ transplant when he was little more than a toddler, a pre schooler in fact.

If things worked the way the the OP thinks about things that little boy would now be dead, same as his donor would still be dead.

The selfless decision of those poor parents saved my friends sons life and I know she is thankful every day for that.

Let's not forget this decision is always taken by next of kin, even if the deceased has made their wishes known before hand. Dead people cannot consent to anything, regardless of the age they died.

YABVU and totally confused.

Consent requires three things: rationality, understanding and freedom. Deciding when an older child is mature enough to satisfy these requirements is a complicated issue, but it is very clear that babies fail all three. That means others have to make decisions for them. This poor baby is brain dead, donating the organs means something good can come from an awful situation.

OP you haven't answered the question, as babies can't consent to surgery, should all babies who need assistance to stay alive die?
Some babies need to go on ventilators, need to be given medicines, need surgery. Should they be allowed to die because they are too young to give consent? Up until what age?

YABU.

Shabbs

what an amazing person your ds was. so sorry for your loss.

I hope I don't upset you when I say I actually snorted when I read the willy comment

you must have some truly happy and hilarious memories of him.

I can see your point regarding ethics, but I don't think this case crossed an ethical boundary - the child was too young to have an opinion so the parents made the choice. I think there is an issue where the person, regardless of age, has expressed a view. At that point I think it's unethical to go against their wishes (either by refusing to donate when the person wanted to, or by donating against their expressed wishes).

As for the 'carving up for parts', that is exactly the impression my DS was given by the team at the hospital where his birth parents died - that there was a complete lack of respect for the deceased or their families. That impression is the reason he remains against organ donation, as much as dh and I believe in organ donation we would not override his stated view (but we hope he changes his mind in future).

I thought we changed to an 'opt out' system of organ donation some years ago?

STGD

I have a friend who's a nurse, she told me that donated organs only last about 10 years on average, is this right? She had some ethical concerns about organ donation to babies and young children, different to mine. She said that if you find an organ for a young child they are very likely to need another in about 10 years, so when the child is a young teen or so. At this point, a new organ may not be able to be found and unlike when the child was very young, they would be acuity aware if this and their declining health. Avoiding this situation would mean letting a young child die though.

You could could see this as an argument for more donation though and not less.

I also think it's a bit of a myth that we could vastly increase organ donation and transplantation, as I understand it most people who die aren't suitable for transplantation anyway (might be wrong). I also think that when it comes down to it, people who have just lost a loved one aren't able to consent, in that they are in too fragile a state emotionally to contemplate it and give consent. I have heard it said that people wished they had consented to organ donation but the window of opportunity is during the very worst time of a relatives life.

But if there is no ethical dilemna why has it taken until now for this to be allowed.

Yabu. A friend of mine died suddenly last year. He had was on the organ donation register and his family agreed that his organs could be used after his death. I hope the recipients get to enjoy their lives as much as he did. Your op was very insensitive.

Fakenamefornow 10years used to be the average. I know children who have been transplanted at an young age and are doing fine. And some who have been relisted for transplant.

Dh is 7.5 years post transplant. Knowing that we have limited time makes is embrace life all the more. And medical advances and treatments means that many more people are living well beyond 10 years post transplant. Different organs have different 'lifespans' as well. It's not as clear as 'you'll only get 10 years'. Dh was 22 when he fell ill, 25 when listed for transplant and 28 when he recieved a heart.

Shabbs and ineed your children are remarkable, as are you. That your boy had a smile on his face shabbs, words fail me.

I can't read beyond page 3, so if more parents are here I apologise.

OP - your post has made me weep with sheer fury that somebody can post such insensitive comments and phrases on a public forum that bereaved parents can read. It beggars belief that you then think it's accept to "regret" your choice of words. The fact that you even think them shows how charmless your thought process is.

My darling second son died 17 months ago aged 21 in a tragic accident. It was several hours until he was found and we were only able to donate his heart valves. We were told that this would enable small children or babies to receive life saving surgery. This was a comfort to me, my DH and my other two DSs. My DS actually carried a donor card and we'd actually had a conversation about organ donation only a few months before he died. As next-of-kin I was asked about organ donation even though he carried a card and was an adult.

I am in the process of trying to find out what has happened to my darling boy's heart valves. I would love to think that there is a piece of him still living and running around in somebody else's child. I'd love to tell them about him and how amazing and funny he was. How he loved his job, what he was good at, what he liked and especially how much he loved us, his family.

I know that if I was the parent with a child needing a donated organ I would be so grateful to the other family.

Your ill-thought out and badly chosen words are like a knife to the heart. How can somebody think it's acceptable to post that? I am so upset to read this.

OP - your attitude is unbelievable.

This is nuts. The baby was dead. Terribly sad, and a situation no parent should have to face. I'm sure you would agree OP that it is entirely their right to decide whether to cremate or bury their child. Why on earth does it matter to you that they made the the incredibly generous decision to donate the baby's organs before that happened? Are you a member of a religion that believes people should be buried whole?

If the baby had lived they would have been making all sorts of decisions about what happened to his or her body (vaccinations, health treatment etc...) without the child's consent. Why is this any different? Especially given the massive potential benefit to others. The parents are to be truly commended for their kindness.

Giles I am glad it made you snort LOL....Matt would have loved that.

He had speech problems where he couldn't pronounce some of the letter sounds properly although I do think that if he could have done he wouldn't IYKWIM?

He used to say 'You know me Mam? I cant wead and I cant wite and I cant even tawk pwoper but Im not bothered.....I wove girls (and kissing them) I wove Vincent Van Gogh - he were mad 'im - cut his ear off...but he did gweat dwawing....and I wove Egypt even though I've never been!!!!'

When he was about 5 - on the school walk - he turned around to me and said 'Mam I dont fink we wive vewy wong do you? I said 'no I suppose we dont live very long Matt!!' 'Well I weckon we should gwab evwy day by the balls and shake it!!!! he was a monkey!!

Gwab evwy day by the balls and shake it ladies xxx

Noname I've had my transplanted liver for almost 11 years and it is expected to last for decades. Transplant medicine has moved on in leaps and bounds.

It is very easy to be about donation unless you are dying. I'm eternally grateful that my donor's family made the decision to donate.

The language used by the op is dehumanizing to the baby and her parents and although the op has apologised, she must have known the hurt it would cause.

Lily I found the organ donation facebook page (apologies to anyone who doesnt like FB) and I simply private messaged them on there. They replied quickly and took all the details - dates etc. It took them about two weeks and then they emailed me and informed me (no names or addresses) what had happened with my boys donation. Without sounding odd it made me smile from ear to ear. xxxx

Hullo everyone,

Thanks for all your reports about this thread. We understand that many of you feel the OP was insensitively phrased, and we can see that BabyX has apologised for this, and regrets their choice of words.

It's really moving to read the personal experience of organ donation that people have posted - thank you for sharing your stories , we hope this thread hasn't been too upsetting for you.

We think there's more merit in leaving this thread as it is, and allowing a discussion about organ donation, than removing it and getting rid of the posts and stories people have taken time to share. We would ask that everyone please bear in mind this is a tremendously sensitive topic, and that compassion and understanding are always worthy additions to a discussion.