To think donating someone's organs without their consent is a serious ethical issue..

[BabyX]

I'm referring to the news today that a newborn baby's organs have been donated after doctors diagnosed her, at birth, as brain-dead. Her parents have been able to give the chance of life to others, I see that. The recipients and their families must be incredibly relieved and grateful. Hopefully that will comfort the parents of the baby, who is now, of course, dead. Organs can only be taken while the donor is still alive.

But AIBU to think you cannot just decide to give away the organs of another human being without their consent? Is it our choice to make?

I'm not sure if I am unreasonable to think this or not. I may just be clouded by sadness at the death of this poor baby who never got a chance at life. It's heartbreaking. Had my child not survived her birth, the thought of carving her up for parts is horrifying.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

There is something total, heartbreakingly futile and devastating about a tiny baby who (through chance and circumstance) never got to live. That something positive could come out of this - that other babies and children could live, is amazing and if I were ever in that circumstance, it would give me a lot of comfort to know that I had been able to spare another family the pain of losing their child.

So I think YABU.

Apologies for typos

Anyone who wouldn't do war their own or a loved one's organs has, I hope made it very clear by advanced directive that they will not consent to receive a transplant either

^^ this.

I assume that (God forbid) if your baby ever needed organs that you would not consent.

If you would not donate your organs or if you would go against a loved one's wishes (something I am appaled it is allowed to happen) I sincerely hope you would not have the cheek to receive anyone else's organs.

I am on the donor list, told my DH to join (he was too apathetic to do it, hence opt-out would be better) and would donate my children's organs should worst come to worst.

The parents of the little girl in the news should be proud of themselves to try and make sense of the horror of losing a child and bringing some good out of it.

I could see where you were coming from (although still disagree with you) up until the horrid "carving up" comment

Surely you must know that certain posters on this forum have actually had to live through this very situation and might take HUGE offense at what you have written?

I was a bit taken aback by the phrase 'carving her up' just because it sounds disrespectful, but I appreciate you said that OP when you were talking about imagining how you would feel if you were put in that situation yourself rather than saying it about this family. I think some people do have that kind of visceral reaction to organ donation. I am on the organ donor register but I wouldn't judge anyone for not donating a loved one's organs or being on the organ donor register.

I have put my baby on the organ donation register. No of course she can not consent, but if we required consent from a baby then no baby would ever receive an organ from a donor, as by the time a child is old enough to consent their organ would be too big to be used for a baby.
If my baby needed a donor organ I would take it without question, therefore I actually feel it would be unethical to not have her on the register.

OP, I don't actually think that this is an ethical issue at all. You're creating a straw man by suggesting its a two-sided argument - a number of posters have pointed out to you that self-consent for children and babies simply does not exist.

In addition you have posted extremely hurtful and potentially offensive phrases.

I actually think people on this thread are being incredibly restrained in staying inside the posting guidelines when talking about something that, quite simply, is one of the most generous things a bereaved parent could possibly do.

You are not 'expressing another side of an ethical question' when you use emotive and indeed offensive language about carving the baby up.

Can you imagine for one moment how the parents might feel if they stumbled across this thread and saw their action (which, in my view, was utterly selfless and astonishingly brave) described in terms more akin to the fate of the Christmas turkey?

You holding a different ethical opinion - fine. You holding a different ethical opinion and deciding that only those words would suffice to convey your opinion - not so much.

It's seems such a huge shame to me that you equate this with butchery rather than with the ability to allow the chance of a wonderfully positive out come to something so unutterably tragic.

I would also like to see an 'opt out' system rather than our current 'opt in'.

There is no 'carving up' carried out - believe me.

My DS3 carried a donor card from being about 4 years old. He asked me, when we were in the pharmacy, what the cards were for. I told him and he thought it was the best idea ever. He asked if he could have one and I said yes. He did a 'fancy sqiggle' where it said signature and even took it into school for 'show and tell morning.'

About a year later he asked did they do willy transplants because he said his was very small!!!

When DS3 was almost 8 years old he was involved in an accident with a flat back lorry reversing - it sadly crushed him to death and he died almost immediately from massive crush and head injuries.

When we got to the hospital we were taken in to see him. He had a smile on his face but just looked like he was asleep. The nurse came to ask us if she could help us with anything. I told them that he carried a donor card and it was his wish to help other people after his death.

My brave, precious boy donated both corneas. This was 22 years ago and the donor organisation have worked hard to find out if the transplants were successful. They contacted me recently to tell me that both corneas were successfully transplanted - they managed to donate them to two separate people therefore giving sight to them both.

When we saw him after the corneas had been taken there was no sign whatsoever that any surgery had taken place.

I urge everyone to put their name on the organ donor register......and, yes, I agree it should be an 'opt out' system.

Offence(sp?)

What an incredibly selfish, manipulative and cold hearted way of looking at it.

I sincerely and genuinely hope that none of your family or children ever need a transplant, only to encounter such selfish and backward views.

Babies can't consent to anything!! You want the doctor to get them to read a form and sign their name when they can't even work out they are even born yet???

I am also pretty sure that most organs come from the dead - they just have to be taken very quickly to prevent them from deteriorating.

Why not think about it like this:

That baby was born brain dead. Aside from the devastation from the parents, it's entire existence had absolutely no effect on the world. Never interacted with anybody. Never featured in a pinnacle moment of someone's life. Never did anything whatsoever. It basically brought nothing but grief.

But by donating organs, suddenly that baby's life has had an everlasting impact on the lives of huge numbers of people. By virtue of being born, they already saved the lives of specific individuals, gave them whole lives to lead, and affected the lives of their families forever. All of a sudden the child's existence goes from bringing nothing but misery, to bringing joy to tens, if not hundreds of people.

If given the choice between letting a member of my family rot in the ground, or live on through the lives of other people, then even idiots describing it as "carving them up for parts" wouldn't put me off.

Shabbs - I am so sorry to hear about your loss.

I agree with an opt out system of organ donation, I also believe if a person opts out they should not be eligible to receive a donated organ

This ^

The thing about receiving an organ is that it's simply a medical decision, and not some kind of reward for good behaviour. So it does not, and should not, matter whether you would donate.

And I say this as someone who has always been on the donor register, and who has watched a close family member wait for an organ which did not come.

shabbs what a lovely young man your DS3 was, your story brought tears to my eyes

shabbs , your DS sounds wonderful.

shabbs

So lovely op that you think I consented and not actually allowed my twin sister to fulfill her wish of being an organ donor but instead to be "carved up for her body parts". That is a disgusting thing to say and I note you've yet to apologise for causing upset and offence with this phrase.

When you are faced with such a bleak, devastating loss, for someone families, it helps with the bereavement process to know they are fulfilling their loved ones wish to help give life to others. I take immense comfort and pride that my twin sister gave life and sight to others.

If you wanted to genuinely debate this sensitive and serious issue then you have gone the wrong way about it. Instead you have attempted to cheapened this poor baby and their family during the most tragic time they will ever face. I think you could something from their dignity and grace.

From your OP:

I do not mean to be disrespectful, I'm just struggling to concur with the general reaction that this is a wonderful "selfless" act.

What part of 'selfless' are you struggling with? Do you think the parents are selfish?

Their own child had died, and in the midst of the horror of their own grief, they sought to alleviate the suffering of others.

What is your issue with that?

It can't be just the concept of consent, or you'd have issues with general medical treatment for anyone too young/aged/unwell to consent.

YABVU.

'Carving her up for parts' is a terrible thing to say.

Parents have to give consent as children and newborns obviously aren't old enough to give consent themselves. What else are they supposed to do? Let all children on the transplant list die?

It's a heartbreaking and utterly selfless thing to do and suggest you read up in it more and educate yourself.

Shabbs

I think the parents of this baby have done a wonderful thing.

I would do the same, if I were to lose a child. I think I would see it as a part of my child living on, and giving life. Something good would come out of a tragedy, and some other parents would not have to experience my heartache.

The flipside is, should my child need an organ, I would hope there would be a donor somewhere.

I also carry a donor card.

x-posted

Since I posted I have seen you have apologised for the phrase you used. Thank you.