To think this is a bloody cruel thing to do to a 3 year old?

[MincePieOfDoom]

I know it's none of my business but I had to get it out somewhere!

Visited PILs yesterday. SIL and BIL were there. They have a DD who is 3 nearly 4, and another DD who is 3 months old.

We were talking about Christmas, what the kids were getting, as you do. During the course of the conversation BIL said they'd had to go back to the toyshop to return one of their DD1's toys.

Long story short, Dniece1 has been quite difficult since Dniece2 arrived. She has been getting up during the night, wanting to come into her parent's bed, throwing tantrums. To be frank, it's all behaviour that I would consider par for the course when a new sibling arrives.

Anyway, DN1 asked for two things from Father Christmas this year- crayons, and a Snow Glow Elsa. She REALLY wants that Elsa doll- we took her for a day out a week ago, and she was chattering on about it then.

SIL and BIL have decided that her 'awful behaviour' over the last few months has to stop. So they've taken the doll back to the shop, and in its place, on Christmas morning, they are going to leave a letter 'from Father Christmas', telling DN1 that she is not getting the doll, because her behaviour has made FC feel she doesn't deserve it, she has to be a good girl etc etc etc.

I know lots of parents threaten FC at this time of year, but to actually do it! Especially when the child is only 3, and the behaviour is, IMO, quite natural! Surely she needs reassured, not told she is a bad girl??

SIL and BIL aren't too happy with me, because I was so shocked when they told us, I said 'isn't that a bit extreme?' before I made myself shut up.

I don't want to drip feed, but I don't always agree with SIL and BIL's parenting techniques as it is, though obviously I don't say anything as it's none of my business. They are members of a very (imo) right wing evangelical church, and it all seems to be about 'sparing the rod and spoiling the child', submission of women etc, and they are big believers in smacking/harsh punishments for children.

Also, whilst you're on Amazon, maybe get them 'What's so amazing about grace?' by Phillip Yancey

It is about forgiveness and gives examples eg of people who were able to forgive their child's murderer. Surely a bit of tantrumming and waking up in the night should be able to be forgiven in that case.

It explains why the people who called AIDS God's judgement for homosexuality and the people who picket abortion clinics are wrong. Jesus would not be doing that.

It talks about God's undeserved grace to sinners. If they really understood this they would give her the Frozen doll just because they love her. Yes, there have to be boundaries and justice demands some consequence for bad behaviour but God is fundamentally merciful. I do not believe that writing a spiteful letter to a tiny child is an action that God would condone.

That is horrible, poor kid. Op, all the fancy clothes and home cooked food in the world wont cancel out being treated so cruelly. What do say to her when nobody is around if they admit to this in public? Keep yourself as close to your niece as you can.

Poor little mite. It wouldn't surprise me if the normal sibling rivalry problems you get from a three year old towards a new baby has been accentuated by the parents themselves. They are clearly such bad parents that they may well have over-concentrated on the baby, leaving their elder child feeling pushed out and unloved, thus the "bad" behaviour.

Most normal parents are acutely aware how much emphasis they need to put on including the elder child when a baby comes along, making him or her feel loved and spending time alone with them.

But these parents have clearly had an empathy and intelligence by-pass. If they don't change their ways they are in for big trouble in terms of bad behaviour, resentment etc. as the elder child grows up. And the baby will suffer too most likely.

OP, the most important thing for you to do is make your niece know that she is a much - loved and a dear child. Oh, and watch out in case the parents get even more heavy handed and you, DH and in-laws feel the need to interfere later.

I think you need to be as neutral as possible to ensure you stay in her life to provide support as she gets older and also to keep an eye out for her

My parents were just like your in laws op.

I won't go into too much detail and derail your thread but I was lucky to get some amazing friends in secondary school that provided the same role that you can have.

I'm not that close with my parents and have learned to distance myself from them. They had very dysfunctional childhoods themselves and I do now have some understanding as to why they behaved the way they did and do.

They have mellowed a lot since we have left home and started our own families thankfully.

Hugs to MrsMcColl and roundtable and anyone else who was brought up similarly.

Can I ask, what happened once you hit your teens? DH is very worried that the DNs may lash out and go too far the other way, potentially getting into a lot of trouble

People need to stop suggesting she buys the doll.

That is a very bad idea. She will either A) chuck it away causing more heartbreak for the poor child or B) not allow OP to see her child ever again.

What good could come from giving her the doll long term? The child and the baby are going to need OP and her husband to keep an eye out on things, it would be stupid to risk the mum going NC for a doll when the most important thing is that someone is looking out for her and her new sibling.

Wow. Poor kid. I could never ever do something like that. I feel upset for the little girl.

I am definitely not going to buy the doll. I am, however, going to make sure she has an extra nice and larger than usual Christmas gift from us. And I'll think of some days out we can take her on over the holidays. If I mention them in front of MIL and use 'company for my DD' as an excuse, I don't think they'll be able to object. And she can get some auntie/uncle/cousin love bombing for the duration...

Good plan and you sound really lovely :)

I know what I'd be getting her for Christmas if I were you.

Rotten evil gits.

Oops, should have read the last post! Your plan sounds better. You sound lovely op, she's lucky to have you.

You are a brill Auntie, Mincepie

Good idea op, buying the doll would maybe cause trouble but you could buy everything but! Day out sounds like a plan. Have a nice Christmas

What a mean and horrible thing to do to a little girl going through a major change in her life.

My DS is nearly 5 and has been pretty awful on and off since starting school in Sept - it has really unsettled him and some of his behaviour has been very difficult. I wouldn't dream of not giving him his Christmas presents - I hate when people threaten that Santa won't bring things if you're naughty etc. He needs lots of reassurance and cuddles not pushing away which is basically what the parents will achieve by doing this.

You sound like a lovely caring aunt whose the little girl is lucky to have in her life.

Thank god she's got you in her life. WIth all the cruelty and misery in the world, why should idiots like the in-laws perpetuate a little bit more spite in the name of God? So upset to read this. Well done for being there for her OP.

Thank you, I really am at peace with it now. I know it was their issues that caused it, not mine.

My parents, my mum in particular was a massive fan of the divide and conquer method to keep us in line. It did work in fairness but was cruel. Luckily all of us siblings have talked about what went on as adults and we have well and truly got their number now so she still tries to do it from time to time but it doesn't work.

As teens my parents would tell anyone who listened how awful me and my sister were and that we were going to hell. Once my dad trapped me in his bedroom with some elders from the church and performed an exorcism on me. It was really frightening and involved lots of laying on hands and shouting.

My brothers towed the line and kept their head down. I always thought they escaped it but they didn't.

We were all really good teens actually. My sister and I used to get accused of all sorts that wasn't true though. However, I was a bookworm that didn't really socialise until I was about 16 and even then I was very restrained. My sister had boyfriends which they found awful.

One of my brothers went a bit evangelical for a while. Luckily he saw the light, so to speak, and came away from it all. He's still quite emotionally scarred and has flash backs.

Sorry if that's jumbled I'm on my phone and trying to write what is the most relevant. It's hard because so much stuff happened.

As an aside I used to be quite judgemental because of their influence. I have had to pretty much retrain my way of thinking and realise that things I grew up thinking were normal, really were not.

Oh good Lord, roundtable. Huge respect to you for coming through all of that to become such a sorted, kind woman

FFS! This is so sad. What if MIL gave her the doll? Would they suck it up or would it cause a chasm? And if SIL quit work to stay at home, why does she need MIL for childcare? Not criticising as basically it gives DN somewhere to be flooded with love.

Just de-lurking to say that you sound like a lovely aunt and you are quite right not to do anything to cause a rift with your BIL and SIL.

It is emotional abuse. Any way to get the doll and keep at your house? Or some similar items 'for being such a good new sister'?

Female children who have experienced emotional abuse often withdaw , have trust issues, poor social skills, cannot hold down a relationship, have poor self esteem and seek to repeat the abusive pattern with a partner as abuse is what they know and 'normal' relationships are alien or scary to them.

They also get Stockholm Syndrome where you identify with/please the abuser as a survivial tactic.

I'd be having a strong word with the parents about positive reinforcement and star charts rather than punishments. (I'm an ex teacher, did child development as part of my degree and am now doing child psychology as part of my psychology degree). That poor child.

So utterly cruel, and most definitely abusive. That poor poor little girl. As a christian, this story has upset me so much, how can someone who claims to be a follower of Jesus, who is love, do something so nasty. Perhaps you could ask them if they deserve God's gift of salvation. They should say 'no', salvation is a gift freely given by God and not based on how good/ bad they are. Then ask them, why it is that their daughter has to earn gifts from them and how will punishing her in this way help her to believe that God loves her and forgives her.

Also if they go ahead with this plan, I would be tempted to speak to the NSPCC for advice.

They are utter cunts.

They are obviously to stupid to work out that they are fucking up the relationship between both girls, the older girl will see all her resentment in her sister and thats really sad for the both of them.

I am very bemused at evangelicals that do god AND santa. how does that work? When I was brought up in these sort of churches we were always told that santa was satan in disguise.