To think this is a bloody cruel thing to do to a 3 year old?

[MincePieOfDoom]

I know it's none of my business but I had to get it out somewhere!

Visited PILs yesterday. SIL and BIL were there. They have a DD who is 3 nearly 4, and another DD who is 3 months old.

We were talking about Christmas, what the kids were getting, as you do. During the course of the conversation BIL said they'd had to go back to the toyshop to return one of their DD1's toys.

Long story short, Dniece1 has been quite difficult since Dniece2 arrived. She has been getting up during the night, wanting to come into her parent's bed, throwing tantrums. To be frank, it's all behaviour that I would consider par for the course when a new sibling arrives.

Anyway, DN1 asked for two things from Father Christmas this year- crayons, and a Snow Glow Elsa. She REALLY wants that Elsa doll- we took her for a day out a week ago, and she was chattering on about it then.

SIL and BIL have decided that her 'awful behaviour' over the last few months has to stop. So they've taken the doll back to the shop, and in its place, on Christmas morning, they are going to leave a letter 'from Father Christmas', telling DN1 that she is not getting the doll, because her behaviour has made FC feel she doesn't deserve it, she has to be a good girl etc etc etc.

I know lots of parents threaten FC at this time of year, but to actually do it! Especially when the child is only 3, and the behaviour is, IMO, quite natural! Surely she needs reassured, not told she is a bad girl??

SIL and BIL aren't too happy with me, because I was so shocked when they told us, I said 'isn't that a bit extreme?' before I made myself shut up.

I don't want to drip feed, but I don't always agree with SIL and BIL's parenting techniques as it is, though obviously I don't say anything as it's none of my business. They are members of a very (imo) right wing evangelical church, and it all seems to be about 'sparing the rod and spoiling the child', submission of women etc, and they are big believers in smacking/harsh punishments for children.

You should go on that parenting course, OP, simply to tell the pastor's wife what a load of nonsense she's spouting.

I second the idea of giving them a decent parenting book for Christmas, preferably one pointing out that God isn't too keen on punishing children for being children.

I'd think carefully about getting the doll though. I mean, they are hardly going to let her have it on Christmas, and then her distress will be worse. They may give it or throw it away.

Perhaps you could buy it and talk to them and say you'd like to give it to her for her birthday. I know this sounds like asking their permission, but if they are that mad (and it really sounds as if they are) if you do some thing that they perceive as going against them, their DD1 is just going to end up getting the brunt of it by having the doll taken away and therefore being punished twice over.

This thread is so . That poor little girl. The cumulative effect on her of all of this crap.....

Re women not working outside the home, this is often not only "approved" but almost insisted on in extreme branches.

As you've found out, they are wholehearted supporters of this type of movement and they will possibly become more extreme, e.g. refusing to let their DC associate with any children outwith their church. They may also decide to home-school, with the sole purpose of keeping their DC away from harmful contact with the outside world or exposure to concepts such as evolution.

You might find it helpful to learn as much as possible about their particular church and its beliefs and practices on the grounds that forewarned is forearmed. Your BIL will probably be highly indignant about the fact you are an independent woman who "dares" to offer different opinions to his own.

Sorry, I really wish I could give some practical help and advice. Their parenting style seems designed to beat all independent thought out of their DD and force her to subject her will to theirs. And that seems very unchristian to me.

Doesn't matter if the Elsa shoes don't fit - IME they happily clatter around the house no matter what size they are

This is horrific, poor wee thing can't win. She'll be in trouble for not being happy on Christmas morning. They are setting her up to fail.

Utter, utter bastards.
I'd be going nuclear here.
A previous poster suggested telling her Santa isn't real- I like this, but I'd give them a chance to put it right.
Tell them that IF they persist with this shockingly cruel idea, then you will be telling her Santa isn't real, and you will be buying her the doll. (They won't cut you off because of MIL's childcare)

Have you told them how cruel they're being? How she will feel when she sees the letter? How her behaviour is normal?

Buy the doll and if they won't back down, give it to her before Christmas. When you're doing so, tell her that Santa is just a story, and if anyone takes her dolly away they're just being mean.

And tell her from me that God loves her, and there's no such thing as a bad child.

That's so awful. She's only acting up because she feels displaced, not to be deliberately awkward. Her parents are going to end up causing her long term issues.

I'm not sure I would give her the doll for fear of it being taken away again. But if you can afford it, I would get a few special frozen bits to be played with when she's at your house.

I think Santa should drop an Elsa doll of at MILs to be kept there. Obvioulsy you need to talk to MIL about it.

My parents were strict for the sake of it (well my mum was, dad went along) and now their children and grandchildren live hundreds of miles away - go figure.

My aunt once woke up to a piece of coal and a dirty potato for misbehavior Xmas Eve - when her parents showed her Santa had left her toys behind the sofa she refused to acknowledge them and played with the potato all day.

Her parents ended up practically begging her to play.

I'm in Ireland so Stores are different. If Disney doesn't have the dress try for it in toy stores and also Primark. Penny's in Ireland is same as Primark, I think. They have loads of really cute Frozen clothes for little ones, PJs, sweatshirts, t-shirts, panties, dresses, and also notebooks, pens and other stuff.

Poor little girl, that really is so cruel.

I hate how it often seems that people who place huge pride in being 'good Christians' are not very Christian at all in how they treat others.

Buy the doll!
www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_ItemCondition=3&LH_BIN=1&_nkw=elsa+doll&LH_PrefLoc=1&_sop=15

If cost is an issue, we can all PM you, you can send us a mobile number and we can all put in what we can. Even 50 p each should do it.
I am usually Strict Mummy but that is cruel.

I would buy her a DIFFERENT Frozen toy that will help soften the blow Christmas morning.
Buy THE DOLL for her birthday in Feb.
If you think they will remove it then keep it at your house and get her to visit as much as you can.

More importantly, all they will do is alienate her as an adult as she remembers her miserable (at best) childhood.

You need to be vigilant on her behalf as it sounds as though they have very little understanding of a young childs needs and may progress to physical abuse as well as emotional.

Their church is weird. It all goes over my head a bit, because I'm about as religious as a bag of crisps, but from what I gather, when BIL first joined the church, it was evangelical but 'normal'- which from what I gather, meant that they were pro life and no sex before marriage,didn't approve of going clubbing etc, but there was no question of women going to work/university. Then they got this new pastor, who has quite extreme ideas, and a lot of people left the church in protest.

SIL has always been very religious, and doesn't have a great relationship with her parents, but it's really BIL that has grabbed this new extreme version of the church IMO. BIL is now great pals with the pastor.

I think there is still a biggish group in the church who are quite moderate, but BIL and SIL and their immediate friends are definitely the extreme end and are trying to get everyone else to go the same way.

There's been no mention of homeschooling, is that a thing too then? I'm not sure if SIL would go for that, she struggles quite a bit with the children as it is, ergo the frequent MIL babysitting even though SIL is a SAHM

What about the ice skating Elsa doll thing? Should I get her that for Christmas or would it be too pointed?

Oh and just to add- my mum had a difficult upbringing, her parents weren't religious, but her dad was VERY strict and mum was terrified of him. She's met my niece a couple of times, both with MIL and once with SIL and BIL. The time with MIL, niece was chatty and lively and friendly, with her parents she is quiet and withdrawn. My mum noticed it straight away (I hadn't said anything) and said that's how she used to be as a child too

Sounds like the sibling in laws are ignoring the fact the more DN is sent to mil and yours (Altho I get she has fun it'll still feel like being sent elsewhere to 3 yo - especially knew with a newborn sibling) the more she'll play up for attention at home or want them at night as she's insecure.

I'd say get her the Elsa ice skater doll - you can say you bought and wrapped it before any of this happened and that you got it because you thought they were getting her the other one. Then just hope they aren't cruel enough to refuse to give her it

It's awful, what a horrible, horrible thing to do to a child.

At the end of the day it's about more than a doll. It's about a parenting style that is 'old-fashioned' to put it kindly. And not really based on any kind of current psychological understanding of what children need.

I think all that you can do is be a loving aunt, giving your niece - and the new baby - a different model of how adults can be with children.

This might give her something that will be useful to her in the difficult times that lie ahead.

I second what DrSeuss says - if money is an issue then we could all send you 50p :) though I would say perhaps buy it for MIL's house so SIL can't take it off DN.

These parents sound horrible. DP and I are Christian and the fundamental belief is love - hitting and emotionally abusing children doesn't seem very loving, quite the opposite in fact!

Also we've had quite a few "issues" with DSS since his brother (mum's baby) was born - but that's normal!! He's almost 5 and like your DN, is understandably unsettled by the arrival of his sibling after so long of it just being him. They need to show her love and reassurance, not push her aside :(

I would like to punch your il's in the face. Nasty horrible cunts.

Buy the doll. Keep it at your house.

If they are that religious why are they perptuating the santa myth.

They sound fucking horrible. This is so sad.

Asda are doing loads of elsa stuff, colouring books pens stories, the whole shebang for just a few pounds each.

They also do "sparkle girls" which are like barbies but fractions of the price.

I'm shocked. It's emotional abuse. The religion thing is a bit of a red herring. It's power and control. The religion part just is to make the behaviour sound acceptable and right.

It isn't.

Heartbreaking :(
Even if you can't resolve it OP, I am sure you will make the poor little girl feel at least a bit better with a nice gift, or your kindness.

I don't think its primarily about the doll, is it? Its about finding ways to let her know that she is loved unconditionally and has a safe space where she will be listened to as and when she needs it. Make sure you get her a lovely present OP (no matter what it is) but most of all, give her a big warm hug and tell her how happy you are to see her, and what a lovely special girl she is.