Muslim mums at our school don't mix with non-Muslim mums

[Vanillacrescents]

There are a large number of mums wearing headscarves who are obviously Muslim at our school. They only talk to each other. Whenever I greet these mums, they don't greet back but prefer to talk to each other. In fact they look the other way. The other day I was first at the school gate and a younger Muslim mum was also waiting. I managed to have a friendly chat with her but the minute another Muslim mum arrived they only acknowledged each other talking in their own language and blanked me.

Yesterday ds fell off his scooter because he tried not to collide with one of these mums as she wasn't paying attention, looking away waving at her friends. Ds fell over and landed in front of her feet. He scraped his knee and started crying however this woman didn't say a word to him or smile at him.
I helped ds up right in front of her and still not a kind word or smile. Instead she gave me a really dirty look and tried to stare me down. I just don't get this attitude and feel it is unpleasant and segregating. I will always greet people regardless of their race, religion, taste in clothes or whatever and treat them with basic respect and be polite. It almost feels like these mums look down on everyone who isn't part of their community.

My god, I totally disagree that we're all somehow hard wired to stick to our own social groups, and no way is everybody just a little bit racist!! What a depressing outlook.

I'm not bloody racist. Crikey.

Lots of really interesting and helpful posts, thank you. I know there was a risk that this thread could go up in flames but am grateful that so many posted with their expereinces of the school gate and given provided perspectives. Thanks again.

Farfrom I disagree not all Muslim children are happy to play with non-Muslim children in school - unless you meant in your school.

In our school I know one boy has been told only to play with other muslims beause of what my DS came home and said to me.

Also a muslim girl was told she wasnt a proper muslim because she had some bare leg showing during the summer months. To me this can be interpreted that parts of some Muslims religious beliefs are such that it means adhereing to stricter (than general) lifestyle rules and anyone who does not is not accepted. The mother of the girl who made the comment is very stoney faced, whereas the other family are not at all.

Vanilla but yes not interested socially are they in your case. It's not nice to be ignored as such if you've been making the effort. I've had worse happen with wendy at school gates.

I sympathise with the op to some degree as in my dc's class most of the muslim families keep themselves to themselves and their children rarely come to birthday parties or other gatherings. It's a shame.

peppermint..wel actually we are, this research is accepted and has been repeated many times.

www.sociallypsyched.org/item/minimal-group-paradigm

Being part of a group is survival. For smaller groups it means more power to be heard and invoke change - think Black civil rights movement. Its all wrapped up in identity theory.

I've moved several times and have been a minority in some of the places. People go on about expats (and other incomers) sticking to themselves. Fact is, often the indigenous population don't really want to welcome new comers. Especially if they themselves have never moved but live in their home town etc. they have no concept of what it's like to rock up new. They have their friends and family - they often don't need or want or have time to go looking to adopt new friendships, especially expats who are probably moving on again anytime.

When I've moved it is much easier to suss out folk like you who are new or not local to the area. They are more likely to be looking for friends, have no local family that takes up time, they understand what it's like to move, be new, deal with kids and everything that goes with it. It can take much longer to make inroads and get to know local people.

All this about expats not wanting to integrate - it's not that simple. Most of my friends and I've been here years now are actually folk from different places who came just like me and had to start from scratch with family etc.

Just an aside:

Our school was merged with three others and is now very multicultural.

The parent council arranged social occasions etc but found the parents from ethnic minority backgrounds didn't attend.

Now it organises a massive social event where everyone brings food which represents their nationality. It was amazing how many ethnic minority families attended. It was a huge success - sharing food really is a way to bring down the barriers.

Now there is a waiting list for tickets every year. It's helped bring the school together as a community (and the food is amazing!)

People do this though, whether they're Muslim or not. If you were an expat living in Lahore and there were several other English families at your childrens' school, I 100% guarantee that you would gravitate together at the school gate and speak English to each other. You may well also be friends with local Pakistani Mums, but you would be closest to the other English Mums, even if you wouldn't necessarily be friends back here in the UK.

Everyone does it. If I hear an Irish accent, I'll make a beeline to talk to that person (although my American DH practically hides behind the nearest hedge if he hears an American accent, but he's just weird like that).

She gave you a filthy look because your child almost rammed into her.

And apart from anything, have you not read any of the million and one threads on here about playground cliques? Taking the expat thing out of it (and it's very different if you use the word "expat" instead of "Muslim", I think), you're not going to break into a ready-formed clique, for good or bad.

andsmile I'm talking about racism, not prejudices and favouritism etc. That report/study seems to me to be a useful tool for understanding group behaviour but it doesn't deal specifically with racism, IMO.

when all is said and done I dont think the issue today was really about Islamic Mummies. I think the mum in question was cold, unkind and callous towards a young child which is never pleasant

peppermint my wording was a tad bleak -sorry|! I perceive my area of London is pretty mixed and actually pretty tolerant. But people tend to stick to their own groups by and large- and people do have preceonceptions about the other groups. I think its a bad idea to pretend we are one happy rainbow world- we aint

Racism is a very common behaviour within humans- the mixed and tolerant cities in developed countries are the tiny minority, not the majority

the human norm is still people having disputes, war, religious, and racial fights- IMVHO--off the top of my head
India, caste system, check
The US, look at their prison population, check
The Middle East- nuff said
South Africa, nuff said
French attitude towards the North Africans

andsmile - yes, I can only talk about our primary. It's a C of E school, quite strongly so, but it copes pretty well with having a very high percentage of non-English (mostly over here for a few years and then return to their country). Over a good few years, I haven't heard of any problems at all between the Muslim children and the non-Muslims. Everyone just joins in together happily. The Muslim children are often particularly hard working and well disciplined, so are an asset to the school in many cases. They often travel a long way at the weekends to attend Arabic school, and have a less fun lifestyle than many of the English kids. The parents really believe in the value of education.

Haven't read the whole thread as I mostly find this kind of thing depressing reading. We are Muslim, my son goes to a school where there are probably less than 5% Muslim children (average 1-2 in each class). I talk to some of the mums (all non-Muslim) at the school gates but actually I had a thread on here when he was in reception as hardly anyone would speak to me and ds rarely got invited for play dates/parties. Having made a big effort things have improved. I work in a professional job, was born in this country etc so feel at home here, but it wasn't that easy and I have made that effort for my son's sake, and also because if don't want to be perceived as being standoffish as one of very few Muslim mums at the school.

For those that stick to their own groups - there's no excuse for not being friendly or responding to a child that is hurt. But if you have a common culture, language or religion with someone it is often easier to stick to people you know, especially as the media can make Muslims feel like they are hated by the general public. I see the same thing with Eastern European mums and I don't judge them as racist.

Well, yes, point taken in that context paris!

Sorry if I didnt explain it further but the principle can be applied to any group regarding their identity be it gender or race for example.

In reality we belong to multiple groups. Tajfel showed through his in group and outgroup study that we all seek to maximise those of our own ingroup and minimise those of other groups. There are many social examples of this.

And when we new at the school in England, all the white English mums practically just blanked me. They knew I was a new mum with a child in the school - but to this day years later many of them have never said hello. The Muslim mums in our school often stand together but they don't seem unfriendly and will smile, one I am friends with.

I also have good Muslim friends who are neighbours. Very traditional but it did take me to make the initial contact and then I couldn't get them to shut up and I was welcomed into their groups, their days out etc even though I'm the only non Muslim. My friends were born here but they are often nervous just going about their daily business. They have been harassed in the street, one had their scarf pulled off and they've been told to go back to their own countries. I can imagine the UK can seem quite hostile to some of the Muslim community, so not surprised they feel comfortable with others like them.

How many countless threads do we see here with people complaining about the 'school gate' brigade who are snotty and cliquey?
This could be any group, it just happens to be in the ops case of them being Muslim. I don't think it's anything to do with being Muslim but rather cliquey, rude behavior itself.

My DS goes to a very multicultural school and yes you sometimes see groups of Muslim mums chatting away to themselves but it doesn't mean all Muslim mums are part of a clique. Obviously these particular mums use the time at school to catch up with each other. If somebody is friendly with me then I reciprocate but I don't worry about being part of a clique or not. My DS gets invited to parties of Muslim children and they attend his so no problems there

I would just get a bit uncomfortable that you are trying to shoehorn all Muslim mums as being part of a huge clique when in fact your experience is just a certain group of woman chatting to each other and catching up who just happen to be Muslim.

I'm from a minority group and know a lot of people who have no friends who aren't of the same faith. When dd was at school there was a definite thing whereby the various groups stood/talked together. However, I'm pretty certain that no one would have blanked you or ignored your son in the same position.

Often minority groups do gravitate together, that's just human nature and where there's been a history of persecution, it's probably essential to keep within your own group. Personally, I'd feel I was missing an awful lot by limiting myself to hanging around with only my own 'sort'. But there is still prejudice and occasionally it will rear its head when I'm least expecting and it does make me feel as if maybe I'm being unrealistic thinking some minority groups can ever be truly accepted.

People can be rude whatever their skin colour or religious beliefs. It's not news.

Would you have started this thread if a clique of white mums treated you the same? If not, then YABVVU.

I do feel it's all a bit complicated. Many people stick to 'their own kind', however in my own upbringing hippy mum I was encouraged to 'mix' with anyone regardless of colour or creed, pay-check or outfit. So I guess I gravitate to people who are a bit like that too and feel frustrated when I encounter people or groups who are closed off and keep themselves to themselves completely. I would feel the same about white English people who didn't want to socialise with non-white or non-English people.

Saying that, I do not know the reasons why these Muslim mums in particular choose not to mix. They have their reasons and I accept that.

Yes the mother in question was cold and uncaring towards ds and it pissed me off. DS didn't cause the accident and even if he did he is four and a bit of kindness from this mum would have been nice. I concluded that she acted this way because ds is not a child of her community. This was wrong a massive leap and obviously a prejudice .

But I do find it a shame that people at our school do not mix more. Also based on pp there does seem to be a 'theme' in that there are some Muslim families who stick to their own and don't allow their dc to play with non-Muslim dc. I think that's really sad and if any white English person here admitted that they allow their dc only to play with other white English dc there would people would be rightly outraged.

So the conclusion is that many communities do not seem to mix outside of their own narrowly defined groups. I feel saddened by this but I guess it's reflective of how set in their way some people are.

Would you have started this thread if a clique of white mums treated you the same? If not, then YABVVU.
Maybe rtft?

Bloody headscarves. How un-British.

Similar experience here. Though it is only one isolated example in one small area we go to, not experienced it elsewhere. We socialise with other muslims regularly usually.

In this area, no rudeness in greeting etc, but they prefer not to socialise with non muslims. Initially I thought we were all good friends, we all (different religions and cultures) went on outings together, that sort of thing. But the muslim parents started to exclude others from their outings and must have arranged things behind the scenes to do this, where once we were all invited and did the planning. They even posted Facebook pictures, not a single non muslim present. Imagine if that had been done the other way around!

That's quite funny ouryve

I'm a Muslim mum. When my son started a new school this September I was a bit wary of the school gate conversations because I actually hate standing about chatting. Also, as I was one of very few Muslim mums I felt quite self conscious. Striking conversation was not easy and I do feel that many people judge me of what I wear. Some mums still ignore me but I just get on with it.