Muslim mums at our school don't mix with non-Muslim mums

[Vanillacrescents]

There are a large number of mums wearing headscarves who are obviously Muslim at our school. They only talk to each other. Whenever I greet these mums, they don't greet back but prefer to talk to each other. In fact they look the other way. The other day I was first at the school gate and a younger Muslim mum was also waiting. I managed to have a friendly chat with her but the minute another Muslim mum arrived they only acknowledged each other talking in their own language and blanked me.

Yesterday ds fell off his scooter because he tried not to collide with one of these mums as she wasn't paying attention, looking away waving at her friends. Ds fell over and landed in front of her feet. He scraped his knee and started crying however this woman didn't say a word to him or smile at him.
I helped ds up right in front of her and still not a kind word or smile. Instead she gave me a really dirty look and tried to stare me down. I just don't get this attitude and feel it is unpleasant and segregating. I will always greet people regardless of their race, religion, taste in clothes or whatever and treat them with basic respect and be polite. It almost feels like these mums look down on everyone who isn't part of their community.

If another kid rides a scooter over my feet I will take the damn thing and smash it to pieces in front of them.
Wow, you sound pleasant.

Yes, I do think it matters. Society becomes a less comfortable, less trusting and more fractured, frightened place when it starts to splinter along ethnic lines. It's inevitable that it will lead to racial and religious tension, sooner or later, because human beings are a group-based primate species--when we start to hang out in "us and them" groupings, hostilities inevitably emerge.

Yes this, its true and the challenge is to question and look for individuals and not allow perceptions of group to cloud judgement. I know of a family at my DS school who were supporters of Saddam and his regime - the mother who sat quite openly in relative safety and comfort and said all this stuff about how it was wrong...my DB had served out there a total of 3.5 years. I said nothing - I believe that it was too complex for me to know enough to articulate how I felt and I was scared to appear racist - but this is about views of regime really. I have since chose not mix with this person. But I have not allowed it to cloud my judgement about my other muslim friends.

happens at DS school to

this, its true and the challenge is to question and look for individuals and not allow perceptions of group to cloud judgement.
Brilliant point.

Racism does absolutely work both ways.

Just ask my aunt who's husband is Indian, how she is treated by his mother. She's a horrible racist lady.

Mind you, my grandmother (aunts mother) is just as bad, if not so openly exclusive because of it.

Any person can be racist. All racist people are dicks. We all live on one world.

Great perspective tondelayo

We sometimes need to walk in another person's shoes to really understand

I agree Tondelayo.

I agree too Tondaleyo. Very well put.

hurr my DM once said as I was driving out of Birmingham 'oo there's a bit to many ethnicky type round here andsmile'

I replied 'mam what are you saying think about DH, you cant say that'

I'd been married with kids to DH for years. I think what she was getting at was that the area was a bit run down, was obviously very diverse re shops and the way people were dressed and that it was literallt different and forrin for her to take in. I was surprised and annoyed at her, I lived in a similar areas before I met DH and she never said anything like that when visiting.

When I pick the DGC up from school I encounter this all the time. People who look at the ground rather than talk, people who cluster in little groups and don't include others, people who will talk to me until one of their friends arrives. Guess what, the school is 100 % white British.

Doesn't surprise me at all. I am guessing other extreme religious groups would be the same. I suspect deep down its due to the fear that if they integrate and allow their children to freely mix with children outside their religious beliefs, their children will see an alternative lifestyle and reject the extreme religious views of the parents.

So yes I agree its unpleasant but I am not sure what the answer is. Would you prefer their had their own schools?

OP, what exactly is stopping you from mixing with them? Maybe it's them who are being excluded.

I would also go with NewStatesman. People commonly associate with those they feel most familiar with. If you look around London, there are zones that were typically where Irish immigrants lived, Greek Cypriots, Jewish communities. It is a cliché but it is probably natural to gravitate towards members of your own community.

Long term it isn't helpful if we don't all make the effort to integrate and I think OP makes some valid observations. It is unfair that this is being interpreted as a bit of an anti-muslim stance by some responders.

I just think that this tendency crosses communities. To throw in my own anecdote, we moved up North for a spell. This was to a small town in Cumbria on the fringes of the Lake District. I found the mums in two camps in the playground. The mainly working class white indigenous population v the mainly middle class white moved into the area population. Indigenous mums largely ignored newcomers no matter how hard you tried. Somebody once remarked that there are some who wouldn't talk to you if they didn't go to school with you, let alone because you've made friendly overtures. God it was hard work when you've lived in the melting pot of the South East for so long. Happily back in the South East now.

These women sound like they may be cliquey and that is something that happens pretty much everywhere but it may not be that.

When I lived abroad I was constantly worried about my language skills and was quite reticent to make small talk with people because this was the hardest part of talking another language for me. I did talk to people one on one but large groups was really difficult because I couldn't follow the flow of the conversation or what the jokes were and I felt tongue tied.

When I found English speakers to talk to I was really relieved, it genuinely felt like my tongue had come unstuck from the roof of my mouth because I could talk without pre-thinking everything I was saying and I could actually follow the conversation without misunderstanding a word every 30 seconds. I wasn't actively rude to local friends, but I did gravitate towards easier conversation.

The women may be bitchy, but maybe they're just like I was and are happy to speak their mother tongue for once.

And to be honest I wish people would admit they are racist

I agree, everyone is racist to some extent- and we lie and we deny and we pretent we are not- but ever group has pre conceived views of other groups- why deny it?

People are hardwired to relate to their own social/peer group- even at DS's age many of the children are in racially sourced friendship groups

I dont think we should all be complete cxxts to one another, but its so disingenous to pretend we are any different to the animal tribes that we are

i also agree with the person that said white people have no idea whatsoever what its like to live with racism-

The thing is that up to now I have treated all of the mums in the same way. I know some mums better and chat to them, meet for coffee etc. however, I say hello or nod and smile to any of the mums should I 'bump' into them including the Muslim mums. The Muslim mums are the only group of people who actually look away but are all to happy to engage with mums from their community. I do understand that there may be this 'honour' thing and that these women are not comfortable speaking to women outside of their group. So based on the understanding that people gravitate to 'their kind' I will now stop trying to engage and ignore. It's too much hard work and too one sided.

Yes, racism does work both ways!

Standing outside a shopping mall waiting for my DH and having a fag break, a group of asian youths approached me. I smiled at them, they then proceeded to spit at me and call me a white whore. I am a 64yr old grandmother, hardly a whore!

And to be honest I wish people would admit they are racist

I think it becomes blurred when people who dont want to mix with or live like other groups of people get labelled as being racist. I can think of many groups of people who I would not want to live with because I just want to live like that and it has nothing to do with their skin colour.

I can also think of people who I dont like to mix with because of their views/lifestyle choices - nothing to do with skin colour or how they dress.

BUT because I dont want to mix live with these people I would never want to see them hurt or left out of society. I still think everyone is entitled to the same choices and freedoms.

I sometimes think people think like this but when they speak about other groups they dont always use the correct language and articulate this. But then are some nasty bastards that just think they have a right to be horrible and look down on group that are different to them.

All different all equal.

And to be honest I wish people would admit they are racist

That's a bit simplistic.

I have said upthread that I would be equally disconcerted if this was a group of white British mums with dc at a school in Spain acting in this excluding way.

Also, if anything, I would replace the term 'racist' with 'xenophobic' and I agree that probably most of us are xenophobic to a degree. I am trying to challenge my own view point and agree with pp who have said that it is easy to single out a group based on obvious characteristics (such as the headscarf or clothes, accent whatever) and as you feel 'annoyed' or 'thtaened' by that group you start to generalise. And that is what I have been doing not proud.

Vanilla I think, I'm not sure, that some muslims are more strict than others and dont like to mix there are different types of muslims (sorry cant remember the names)

I know my muslim friend who I have plenty in common with re babies, work, house, cooking etc does not share aspects of my upbringing - holidays, alcohol and clubbing type music.

Sometimes I feel like you are not allowed to dislike things/people the pressure to be everything to all things is too much. People wll think what they want in their own heads anyway.

I have reconsidered my 'perceived' meaning of why these mums blatantly ignore me (and others) I.e. It's 'because they look down on non-Muslim people etc. as that was a prejudice. However, I also see what I see. That is that these mums (or most of them anyway) do not engage with mums outside of their community. This thread has helped me to see that there is not necessarily a negative reason for them acting in this way (there may be hundreds of reasons, which I am unaware of) and that's great. But it doesn't change the fact that I feel they are being antisocial and therefore I won't try anymore. If any mum should want to chat to me or say hello, I will, of course, respond and engage, regardless of which religious or ethnic community they belong to.

There are some Muslim parents who will not let their children attend birthday parties of non muslim children. However I think that its the fear of their child accidently eating non Halal food rather than overt racism. Muslim families are a large range of cutural groups. Pakistani muslims have different customs to Algerian muslims.

I think its important to seperate race from religion. There are racist people of all creeds and colours.

My children for many years attended a primary that has probably around 25% Muslim children. Yes, the mums tend to talk Arabic among themselves. However, I made a bit of an effort, by attending "Help your child to learn maths etc" lessons with some of those mums, and by making an effort to chat with them in the playground. They seemed to appreciate someone making the effort to be friendly and be patient with their sometimes poor English. They liked having their children complimented, and someone taking an interest in the Arab Spring (most of them came from abroad, were not UK born). I also had success in inviting their children to birthday parties. But that was because the parties were held outside, in the park. They would not attend a party held in a non-Muslim's house. The mums stayed at the parties sometimes and chatted. However, we were never invited back - Muslim girls only invited other Muslim girls to their homes.
This may be different for British Muslims. In fact, my DC had one girl friend who was UK born and who would go to birthday parties in other girls' houses, but not stay the night.
I think that you can go a certain distance, if you are prepared to make the effort. It makes the school feel a pleasanter place.
The main thing is that the Muslim children are totally happy to play with the non-Muslim children in school.

I guess I felt slighted by all these shenanigans but can see beyond that now.