Muslim mums at our school don't mix with non-Muslim mums

[Vanillacrescents]

There are a large number of mums wearing headscarves who are obviously Muslim at our school. They only talk to each other. Whenever I greet these mums, they don't greet back but prefer to talk to each other. In fact they look the other way. The other day I was first at the school gate and a younger Muslim mum was also waiting. I managed to have a friendly chat with her but the minute another Muslim mum arrived they only acknowledged each other talking in their own language and blanked me.

Yesterday ds fell off his scooter because he tried not to collide with one of these mums as she wasn't paying attention, looking away waving at her friends. Ds fell over and landed in front of her feet. He scraped his knee and started crying however this woman didn't say a word to him or smile at him.
I helped ds up right in front of her and still not a kind word or smile. Instead she gave me a really dirty look and tried to stare me down. I just don't get this attitude and feel it is unpleasant and segregating. I will always greet people regardless of their race, religion, taste in clothes or whatever and treat them with basic respect and be polite. It almost feels like these mums look down on everyone who isn't part of their community.

1. White Mums at my DD's preschool are clique-tastic. Most of the Chinese Mums aren't. DD has all mixed heritage or Chinese children coming to her birthday party from preschool. None of the non-Chinese parents even RSVPed. Does that mean that that is just coincidentally how things are or are Chinese people nicer than white people?

2. Your DS almost hit her. I probably wouldn't be pleasant about it.

3. The absolute worst people I have ever met for not mixing with local people and learning the language have been English ex-pats (and I do mean English).

If people are rude, that's not nice. Making it about their religion is unpleasant.

I don't think you can extrapolate anything from playground petri dish observations.

Your experience at your school will be different from others' experiences at their schools.

But that being said, there are segregation problems between muslims and non-muslims at DSD's school. Mainly among the children rather than the parents - (whom I've found to be very friendly).

Quite often non-muslim children are excluded from games and picked on by muslim children. DSD has been told that 'god hates her for being a non-believer', and that she can't play with the other kids because she's not muslim, etc.

We've had to speak to the school about it a couple of times.

I could give anecdotal, 'they arent like that at my school'(which is true) but I'll also add there is the same problem with certain mums at my school. Roight up their own arses and never acknowledge, not due to religion. Also polish families stick together when chit chatting, I see no problem with this at all? I find it odd when someone I dont know (no kids sharing classes etc) make conversation with me.

Generally I also fail to make conversation at school as I am with my own friends (which yes makes me a horrible person )

Ginny how on earth do you get that it's a common problem from two people saying it's a problem in their school?

It isn't a problem at DSs school. Not at all.

In his particular school there are cliques though. Not on purpose, but seems to be the mums of children with a particular disability gravitate towards each other. Usually because they know each other outside school for the different groups for children with specific disabilities.

Another clique that exists is those mums who do school pick ups as they all know each other and never see the mums that use SEN transport.

I don't get the 'they talked to each other in their own language' thing. Surely this is ok. I live in Wales and have no problem with Welsh people speaking Welsh to each other or the large Polish population speaking Polish to each other.

Do you introduce yourself, ask them about their kids etc? Is your child friends with their children, talking to you about them? Are these women good at English or is it difficult for them to have a conversation in a language they don't know.

Which bit is unpleasant?
Which bit is unnecessary?

The blanking of your son is a bit mean but then I am not sure if I would intervene with an injured or upset child if I knew their mum was there and likely to do it herself.

If a child came towards me with a scooter expecting me to get out of the way and then fell off I might be a bit annoyed too./

If the language thing is unpleasant and unnecessary then I think you need to try and understand that other people speak different languages and they don't have to speak in English if they are talking to people who speak their native language.

Why do you leap to the conclusion that her attitude was due to her being a Muslim? It's much more likely that she was pissed off about this 'near collision', which was entirely caused by you not adequately supervising your child. You'd actually done something unreasonable, so why assume it is race related? Unless you are in fact a racist.

*segregation.

Of course any individual can be rude. And yes, maybe I am just annoyed at being blanked by 'these' mums and the scooter incident is a 'read herring' but they are more than happy to chat to each other and walk together. They don't ever chat to any of the non-Muslim parents, they don't ever share the school run with people who are not part of their community.

Vanilla. I might not be particularly pleasant if you'd let your child almost crash into me on a scooter if you didn't look to be trying to stop them scooting into people or didn't apologise for the near collision.

I don't really get these threads. Perhaps she was just a rude/shy/cross-with-your-dc type person, with or without good reason.

I think positing this the way you are doing is goady.

Reading this is fairly depressing.
There are lots of examples of people choosing to segregate themselves.

As much as the PC (lets all get on and embrace eachother's cultures) wants everybody to integrate and get on really well, maybe it's human nature to want to mix with people who you have a lot in common with!

Maybe they all hang out together outside school? Maybe they sense that they are being talked about like this, and given how Muslims are being presented by the media right now, are sticking together. You can't do a class analysis based on such a tiny sample.

If your DS almost ran into me on a scooter, I wouldn't be inclined to be nice about him either or about you.

In my experience most segregating has nob all to do with culture and everything to do with personality, which is a natural human instinct.

Just a bit like talking more to the mums who have children's in your child's class surely?

I think positing this the way you are doing is goady.

I don't think it is.
It bothered the OP (incident this morning) and she wants people's opinions on it.

Was the word goady invented by Mumsnet?
I can't take that word seriously and laugh every time I see it written down.
Sorry but it cracks me up. for some reason

which was entirely caused by you not adequately supervising your child. You'd actually done something unreasonable, so why assume it is race related? Unless you are in fact a racist.

Haha, why was it my fault? Ds stopped his scooter so he wouldn't run into this woman who looked away and didn't pay attention, he did well. In stopping and being careful he lost balance and fell over.

Yes, I guess I am jumping to conclusions and I can see that. This is why I posted here cause I don't like feeling like this. Of course this woman wasn't rude cause she is Muslim per SE. I had the impression that it was because we are not part of her community so it didn't matter to her that ds fell over. And because I am not part of their community, they will not respond to my greeting or engage in other ways.

Yes ginny, but the Muslim-heavy references in the op are irrelevant in that case.

Well my experience is that Muslim mums are all about their headscarves. Sickens me, to be honest. Frankly I feel very left out if I want to talk about other items of clothing. Scarves scarves scarves. That's Muslim mums for you.

Oh, that was to your 10:58:01 post

It happens at my school too, i hadn't thought about it any further then 'they must know each other'.

A friendly smile has no language barrier. This, like racism works both ways but its always perceived as only white, British people are racist.

This does happen in my DCs school too.
There are a lot of mums who are muslim and they do tend to just talk to other muslim mums. But they don't blank others nor are they unpleasant if you try to talk to them. I have had converastions with them and they are lovely, but they do tend to gravitate towards each other in the morning and stand around chatting in cliques.
BUT...you see the same with other ethnicities too. There are some european parents, french, german, etc, and they tend to hang around in groups, the indian mums tend to talk amongst themselves and ofcourse the English mums talk mainly with each other too.
I think it's just one of those things that happens. As long as nobody is being made to feel excluded and if everybody is polite and welcoming, I don't see the problem anyway.
I just tend to flit around the groups btw. I'm not English but I'm not from any of the other cultures either I do tend to associate more with the English mums and dad as I know them personally as friends.

I think rissoles has a point that racism/prejudice can exist on both sides,

Of course racism exists on both sides. But being a Muslim is not a race. You can be a born and bred white English person and still be a Muslim.

Why is everyone assuming that it is the child's fault that the scooter collision took place? In her OP, Vanilla said that the mum wasn't looking where she was going - maybe she stepped into the child's way, and he had no chance of avoiding her?

On a general level, I would worry if I thought there was a trend for different ethnic or religious groups to segregate themselves/exclude others - because surely that is going to increase tension and lack of understanding? People fear what they don't understand, so surely the better we understand eachother, the better we will get on? And socialising - even casually on the playground - is a part of that, isn't it?

This sort of discussion always tends towards trial by annecdote, since we simply don't know what the real reasons are. However I may as well add my own annecdotal evidence. I have a friend whose child is in my daughter's class, who is muslim, family from Pakistan although she is British, and married to a man from Bangladesh. She is always late dropping her child off and collecting - not becauae she is naturally tardy but because that way she avoids the other parents. When I say late btw, I mean absolute last minute not actually late. The reason? She feels uncomfortable. She feels she stands out. When she is early she will nod to all the asian parents, muslims, hindus etc. She just feels more comfortable with them.

Re the language comment above, what language would you suggest? Islam is practised in many countries. For my friend you would need to speak Farsi, for her in laws, urdu. I really do think that often it is simply a case of people seeking out people with similar interests, tastes and backgrounds, quite naturally, because that is who you feel comfortable with, nothing more.