to ask where indyref Part 5 is?

[grovel]

Well?

Well done Grovel. I didn't realise I would be the 1000th post! What an honour!

I don't think you're a troll Chelsy , you're my favourite. Nor do I think lady Cordelia is too rich, I'm not far off earning what she does some years.

Och you're all lovely x

I got a bit of a shock when I saw you'd filled the thread!

What I meant to post before the other thread ended:

In many ways Criseyde I wonder if we are in a transitional phase in Scotland, due not least to the previous devotion to voting Labour. It used to be the case that if you asked just about anyone in Scotland, they would say they voted labour, and if you asked why, they would invariably say something like "Because my father voted Labour, and my father's father before him" or "Because Labour is the party of the working man/people". Often followed by a comment about how evil the Conservatives are.

It almost seems like there is a very under-developed sense of political tolerance and different voting tendencies. Its almost childlike to assume that political parties are actually evil - we are lucky not to live in a country where IS or similar is in power. Sure, you may prefer one party's policies to another, but to actually demonise them and fall into the trap of saying they are evil, etc. to me is just doing the work of rival parties and falling for their share of lies and deception. Not everyone buys into this whipping up a frenzy behaviour.

I don't believe we have any political parties that are all good, or goodness personified, and that they all have their failings, and corrupt practices, and members and politicians likewise.

And I'm still waiting to find out what my "other username" is, and a link to its most recent posting.

I've had this "attack" levelled at me a number of times now by yes supporters on these threads, and have in the main ignored it, because I cannot see what point it makes.

But it turns out that they seem to think I have multiple identities which I am using at the same time. So put your money where your mouth is, and come up with links?

(its not true by the way, I really couldn't be bothered to devote such attention to an internet site). But what is it exactly that I'm supposed to have done wrong here?

I've just found some lecture notes from university about the breakdown of the British Empire. We were told then that the newly-independent countries which flourished after independence (as societies, not necessarily economically) had four common traits:

1. At least 65% popular support for independence. It is hard to galvanise a large disaffected rump which can become a drag on progress.

1. A predominant political party which permitted opposition but was followed by most. You get some scrutiny but also continuity of policy/purpose.

1. A strong, respected leader / Father Figure behind whom the population could rally when the going got tough.

1. A clear, accepted and realistic vision of what the new country was to look like 10/20/30 years into the future.

I know that times have changed. I know that these countries had not been in a peaceful union with rUK for 300 years. I know that my lecturer's analysis may have been wrong. I still found it interesting to consider whether iScotland will meet the criteria above.

Checking in.

"In many ways Criseyde I wonder if we are in a transitional phase in Scotland, due not least to the previous devotion to voting Labour. It used to be the case that if you asked just about anyone in Scotland, they would say they voted labour"

I agree with you here, Chelsy. If anything else, the referendum debate has opened up political discourse for a lot of people who just weren't that bothered previously, and I think that, in future, a lot of people will be voting with a great deal more scrutiny - of policies and candidates - whether that's in WM or HR.

In particular, I think that a lot of people will be done with voting for the LP as the 'lesser of two evils'. Not that it's not a rational position to vote for what you perceive as the lesser of two evils - you get less evil. But a lot of people are very dissatisfied with a party who they see as very detached from the interests of their voters in Scotland.

Earlier someone asked if voting for independence, greater devolution etc, was inextricably linked to national identity. For me it certainly wouldn't be. I don't give a scooby about national identity. Many of the people I know who intend to vote yes identify as English, or are originally from another country altogether. I don't know why voters in the NE rejected a Northern Assembly, but that's really up to them. Whenever an English Parliament is even fleetingly discussed as a response to the West Lothian question, people seem to dismiss it as an unnecessary and expensive tier of government. It doesn't seem like there is much appetite for further devolution in England at all - and again, that's really up to voters there. But I don't see why lack of interest in greater representation for parts of England should necessarily constrain further devolution, or independence, for people who live in Scotland.

Ooh, I don't want to be a 'large disaffected rump'.

Seriously though, a useful addition to the debate.

National identity is too much a chance of birth to me, a bit like being born into money or into a certain family, and I'm therefore uncomfortable with it.

I get the lesser of two evils argument. The Labour Party are pretty awful and I think took over the role of the Conservatives when they fell out of favour. But demonising one party is just too childish for me.

What no-one has even attempted to explain, with any relevance, is how in a country which is supposedly going to become a fairer and more equal society by becoming independent is:

(1) Why there is such political intolerance, e.g. of the Conservative vote, which nearly 1 in 5 Scots voted for in the last GE?

(2) Why the Scottish Parliament have no interest in sorting out the corrupt and incompetent mess that is City of Edinburgh Council, and instead turn a blind eye to it?

Read this article today www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/scottish-independence-uk-dependency

Any comments from the economists?

I would urge people interested in 'paths to independence' to read Women Saying No which I think I mentioned on the last thread. It has a range of opinions, not all of which I fully agreed with, but the chapter on the Eastern European countries and the impact that independence has had on women in particular (lots of points made, but in a nutshell vastly lower representation in parliament, disproportionate negative impact on women's employment and income).

I'm not comparing Scotland to Eastern Europe any more than I am to a former colony or to Norway, but it is an interesting angle and not one that gets a lot of coverage as far as I've seen.

That was rude sorry, excerpt from article:

"It is not due to Scotland leaving that a “sterling crisis” may threaten. It is due to the UK’s economic problems. Cumulatively, between falling incomes and rising debts, these mean we are already “one shock away from a further crisis.” Whether it was Eurozone stagnation, Scottish independence, or own property bubble collapsing, this is an economy almost designed to fail – at some point, and from some cause."

Hi everyone,

Great to have seen all the debate on the many Indyref threads in recent weeks, and following on from our invite to the Yes campaign and Better Together, we can now confirm that Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling have agreed to a date. The webchat debate will be next Wednesday 10 September from 1.45 - 2.45PM, and we'll post the link to the webchat thread here once it's up.

This will be the last debate between Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling before the Referendum on 18 September, so do make sure to save the date!

Well done KateHMumsnet! Fantastic work. How fortunate that they'll both be too busy to have read these threads.

Well it could be awkward for a couple of people if they read certain Saturday night posts....

Appreciate this (webchat) but not such good timing for those of us who work standard hours!

I may possibly have blocked out my diary. Fair play to them, I imagine they are both pretty busy just now.

but the chapter on the Eastern European countries and the impact that independence has had on women in particular (lots of points made, but in a nutshell vastly lower representation in parliament, disproportionate negative impact on women's employment and income)

Really? In what way?

I think you can drawn at least as many parallels between Eastern European countries and Scotland as you can between Norway and Scotland.

That's great news! Very well done Mumsnet for arranging that. It can't have been easy. :)

That is a seriously scary link, ItsAll. Is it assuming no formal currency union? I thought one of the benefits for rUK of CU was to prevent such a crash.

It sounds bad, but it's not news and something that has always informed the Bank of England's deliberations. Everyone was aware of it before the government decided on no CU, so it's not likely to change anything. Sorry to disappoint you!

Oooh good, here we all are. And yes, well done MN for the Salmond/Darling biscuit bonanza debate

sorry to drag over from the previous thread, but someone said

But the idea that a No vote will magically bring about a Labour Government; help to eradicate poverty around the UK ... It's pie in the sky.

well of course, magic doesn't exist and I don't think anyone believes that by voting No these things will inevitably happen - I certainly don't.

But I think we will be in a much more stable and stronger position as part of the UK than out of it, and with further devolution already promised we will have a lot more levers to pull from Holyrood to make our society fairer up here whatever London is doing down there.

"1) Why there is such political intolerance, e.g. of the Conservative vote, which nearly 1 in 5 Scots voted for in the last GE?"

In the WM 2010 GE the Conservatives got about 17% of the popular vote. That was a pretty good result for them, in the general scheme of things. In the 2011 HR election they only managed about 14% About the same as they managed in the previous WM elections.

The answer, though, is pretty simple and the answer is Thatcher. And Thatcher's policies which the majority of Scottish voters, I'd think, saw as inimical with "a fairer and more equal society". In so far as you are looking for policy makers who are interested in decreasing inequality and promoting social justice - well - you just won't find it in the Conservative Party. It's just not what they purport to stand for. A lot of people suggest that Scottish voters really aren't hostile to Conservative policies, just to the cultural legacy of Thatcherism, but I think that really dodges the issue in that the cultural legacy of Thatcherism was a direct result of Conservative policies...

"Yes" voters, are there any Scottish WM politicians you'd like to see involved at Holyrood after independence?