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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 03/04/2014 19:45

For the misinformed people who say that pro-life charities do nothing once the baby is born this is the leading pro-life charity in the UK

I spent too much time on another one of these threads recently and I don't have time to do the same again. I agree with all those saying that they have the right to protest peacefully.

MoominIsWaitingToMeetHerMiniMe · 03/04/2014 20:00

Oh, look who's just turned up!

OP you are not being unreasonable. People who protest outside abortion clinics (yes, bumbley, your 'friends' are included in this) are absolute scum.

Alisvolatpropiis · 03/04/2014 20:12

bumbley

Not outside a clinic though. How thoughtless and selfish of them. They have right to peaceful protest, not a right to harass and humiliate women who, for whatever reason they have found themselves there, will be feeling vulnerable.

op where is it being held, what day and what time. I'll call 101.

twofingerstoGideon · 03/04/2014 20:16

I don't think the majority of protestors outside abortion clinics are there on behalf of 'Life' - the charity linked to in bumbley's post. I know for a fact that our local demonstrators are not affiliated with them, but are run by a local (male, of course) religious zealot who has set up what he calls an 'educational charity'. They are all members of the same evangelical church. These are the people holding placards and dishing out horrible leaflets to teenage girls as they walk to the local 6th form college and blocking the footpaths of our local universities with their placards and propaganda.

'Life' may temporarily house pregnant women and 'prepare them for independent living', but I'm fairly certain they don't offer 18 years of the financial and emotional support needed to raise a child to adulthood. It takes more than a few baby clothes and some short-term assisted housing (although that's a good starting point if the woman's reluctance to continue her pregnancy are purely around housing/affordability of clothing a child).

TBH I'm really pleased groups like Life exist for those women who are undecided and for whom that small amount of support is enough to make them feel they can continue their pregnancies. Good luck to them. I'm equally, if not more, glad, that places like Marie Stopes and BPS exist to support the large number of women who feel they can't or don't want to continue with a pregnancy and wish to exercise their legal right to terminate.

TheGrassIsSinging · 03/04/2014 20:17

I think these people are vile. All the causes in the world they could choose to turn their religious do-gooding to and they choose to spend their time shaming decent, responsible women.

Sometimes Abortion Rights stage counter protests. It often scares the quieter pro lifers off. Contact them?

I am very sorry this is affecting you like this.

thebody · 03/04/2014 20:24

if a woman seeks any medical advice about anything she has the right tondo do without clowns, twats and idiots blocking her path or trying to engage her in any conversation.

when I go to my doctors I would assume that people were mentally unstable if they approached me to ask about my medical conditions.

these people should be banned and prosecuted for harassing and stalking women/men who are accessing any clinic for any reason.

by all means go in marches but not static picketing

should be illegal and they should be arrested and charged..

Purplepoodle · 03/04/2014 20:29

This makes me enraged. It's just a form of intimidation, vigil my ass. This happened outside a local clinic and they were pleading with a pregnant woman not to go in. Do you know she was there to try and arrange a termination of her pregnancy as the baby had no brain, but our laws he said local health trust couldn't help her.

If they really want to change the law, go to parliament, lobby mps. Don't intimidate vulnerable women with their so call help

confuddledDOTcom · 03/04/2014 20:31

That's fine Bumbley, I linked to it so people can read your views.

LoonvanBoon · 03/04/2014 20:38

I support the right to peaceful protest, but genuinely struggle to understand what these particular protestors believe they can achieve.

If they do intimidate a woman to the point where she doesn't enter the clinic, I presume that she would return on another day, or contact the clinic and explain what had happened & ask for an escort. Is there a shred of evidence that pro-life protestors have stopped a single abortion from taking place?

I also find their stance inconsistent. If, as the Catholic Church teaches, even an early abortion is morally equivalent to murder, then would you really just stand around holding placards outside a building where you truly believed babies were being murdered?

I've read pro-life rhetoric describing abortion as a "hidden Holocaust" - offensive on so many levels - but a few people standing on street corners seems an odd response if that's what you believe is happening. You'd be lobbying the government constantly, or trying to take direct action to stop it (though thank goodness the latter doesn't happen in the UK, AFAIK).

Agree with specialsubject upthread, too, that anyone who wants to prevent abortion should be focussing on helping & support pregnant women in difficult circumstances. I don't think any of the Churches exactly led the way in the past in challenging offensive attitudes to single mothers. I have older relatives who were refused baptism in the CofE because their parents weren't married.

superram · 03/04/2014 20:39

There is a pro choice gathering on Ealing green on sat 5th April. The protestors there are not always silent and have been intimidating. Organised by pro-choice alliance. Everyone has a right to their opinion but not to force this on others-especially when they are vulnerable.

superram · 03/04/2014 20:47

Sorry, as bird says it is Bloomsbury pro choice alliance. Their fb page states it won't be a shouty intimidating protest and there will bubbles.

thebody · 03/04/2014 20:52

the Catholic Church hates abortion because they needed the single mothers to work in their laundries and sold their children for adoption.

if they still could they would.

bumbleymummy · 03/04/2014 21:16

Alis Peacefully protesting is not the same as 'harassing and intimidating'.

twofingers, perhaps not but it does show that some pro-lifers do care about the women before and after they have given birth - not just the foetus as some people are suggesting.

"would you really just stand around holding placards outside a building where you truly believed babies were being murdered?"

What do you suggest they do instead? How do you know they aren't lobbying the government as well?

"anyone who wants to prevent abortion should be focussing on helping & support pregnant women in difficult circumstances"

Just like the Life charity I linked to above.

"There is a pro choice gathering on Ealing green on sat 5th April. The protestors there are not always silent and have been intimidating. Organised by pro-choice alliance."

How many of you are going to complain about their right to protest (in their 'not always silent' and 'intimidating' manner)?

Alisvolatpropiis · 03/04/2014 21:18

bumble

I said humiliate not intimidate. If the pro-foetus brigade were as keen on people post birth as they are prior to it, I might give them the time of day. Alas, that is not the case in the main.

bumbleymummy · 03/04/2014 21:30

Alis, see link above.

Not getting drawn into another one of these - they don't go anywhere. Have a pleasant evening all.

Pitmountainpony · 03/04/2014 21:38

I am not catholic but I find all the anti Catholic attitude just really uneducated...and simplistic.....ahh because you have seen a few movies....right...well that means you can dismiss millions of people followinga Religion as scum....if anyone said that about Islam on here there would be an outcry....every religion has stains in its history and people who have abused their power to do hateful things.

All these percentages about very few babies being near 24 weeks......well 160 a year is a significant number...if that number quoted above is accurate.
If it was on the news that 160 premature babies had been euthanized in a hospital in one year....there would be an inquest.it would be classified as murder.

These people are protesting what they believe is the ending of a vulnerable life.
Let's not pretend that all abortions happen because babies have serious deformities incompatible with life.
I would say half of my friends have had abortions for reasons that came down to a baby not being wanted. Some have thought nothing more of it, others have regretted it.

The point is it is a pretty serious decision and many would say a moral one.
These people have a right to express their views and I am sure if they change one woman,s mind they would see it as worthwhile.
If I had ever needed an abortion, frankly I would appreciate people reminding me of the seriousness of that decision , however uncomfortable that might make me, because I don,t think I was really aware in my 20 s what terminations past a certain time involve and it is important that people know, before they go ahead.......as I am sure most women do once they have made their choice.
Now that is clearly a side effect of what they are doing, which is protesting about the terminating of pregnancies.
I am glad women have the choice...I wish the limit was lower...but the law is not in agreement on that.
I am glad these people have the freedom to express their moral conviction on something we should not pretend is not a moral issue.

Menolly · 03/04/2014 21:43

bumbleymummy I know about Life and the work they do, they tend to stand quietly with leaflets and offering support away from the actual entrance and do actually offer some practical support at least, they offend me far less than some other pro-life protesters, although I wish they would't have the graphic posters out where children will see them.

This one is Helpers of God’s Precious Infants, their aim is 'to bring Christ’s peace to these places of death and to save the physical lives of our brothers & sisters through the spiritual conversion of their mothers.' They offer no practical help, they just pray and try to bully vulnerable women into joining them.

OP posts:
BackOnlyBriefly · 03/04/2014 21:45

Ah peaceful protest. As others have suggested we could do that outside churches. We could offer help and advice there couldn't we. I'm sure lots of parishioners would benefit from being told a bit more about the churches they support. They'd probably be quite grateful.

We could tell them in graphic detail about the crimes and atrocities committed by their church. We could read out the nastier bits of the bible (pretty much any of the OT) and show them pictures (photoshopped like the Pro life ones) of what the Canaanites would have looked like after being slaughtered and left in the sun for a few days.

These pro-life groups have offices too don't they? We could do a bit of peaceful protesting there too.

Then again most of us probably couldn't stomach using their tactics. It takes a special kind of person to be a true pro-control fanatic. I think you have to have something missing there really. Two somethings if you count being not being able to do joined up thinking.

thebody · 03/04/2014 21:47

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bumbleymummy · 03/04/2014 21:55

Good post Pit

Menolly · 03/04/2014 21:56

Pitmountainpony I'm not saying Catholics are scum or even that everyone who is pro-life is scum, just that the judgey protesters are.

OP posts:
Pitmountainpony · 03/04/2014 21:59

I just do not understand the vitriol towards these protesters if they are being peaceful.
If you are so clear that your decision is the right one, I am sure their opinions will have little impact upon you.
If you are ambivalent then who knows maybe such protestors could help you.
I know people who have regretted abortions deeply. For those people the protesters present a different viewpoint.
I am sure if you are absolutely sure that what you are doing is acceptable, and certainly it is legal, then the protestors will have little impact on you.
The op does not have to look on if it distresses her so much.
Being pragmatic and non catholic I will never be protesting but I respect people making a stand for something that they deem a life or death issue and at a certain gestation, I am inclined to agree that it is exactly that.

Pitmountainpony · 03/04/2014 22:01

Well to suggest people protesting against something they believe is an act of killing, are scum, is a pretty strong judgement wouldn't you say menolly?

Dawndonnaagain · 03/04/2014 22:05

...well 160 a year is a significant number...if that number quoted above is accurate.
There are over 28 million women in the UK. It's a piddling amount.

Dawndonnaagain · 03/04/2014 22:08

Let's not pretend that all abortions happen because babies have serious deformities incompatible with life.
I'm sure TheBabyFaced feels so much better for you complete lack of judgement.

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