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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

999 replies

Menolly · 03/04/2014 00:08

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 13:37

Dawn, no, that's not what I'm trying to state. If I wanted to state that I would. I am trying to figure out where different people's cut offs are because everyone has a different opinion - even among people who identify as pro-choice. I don't want to assume that someone thinks one thing when they actually think something else. ISn't that why you would ask pro-lifers if they believe in abortion in cases of rape/incest and what their views on the MAP are?

body,

confuddled's earlier post - "I'd like to point out that as far as I'm concerned Bum does believe in abortion because I believe that life starts at conception but she says it's implantation and OK to use abortifacient contraception which I (as a prolife Christian) think is wrong."

con fuddled, I am sorry that you are hurting right now and feel that you can't post. As I said earlier, it must have been a very difficult decision for you given your beliefs.

bumbleymummy · 08/04/2014 13:39

Thank you again Chewbacca.

Dawn, I see you also missed my last post to baby.

ChewbaccasSister · 08/04/2014 13:45

The reason it is a philosophical question and could not happen is because it is against the law.......for a reason!

"All women have the right to control what happens to them and their bodies". I truly wish that the NI laws were such that theBaby could have an abortion for medical reasons. However, for non-medical reasons, I don't believe the woman DOES have the right to control what happens to them and their bodies after the 24 week mark. And clearly neither does the law.

I live women and women's rights. I love equality. I love women having control of their own lives and circumstances BUT I would reject her "rights" to abort at term for non-medical/disability etc reasons at 38 weeks. In the same way that I reject a woman's "right" to murder her newborn because she does not like what has happened to her. And BOTH situations are illegal. Go figure.

thebody · 08/04/2014 13:48

chew there are hardly going to be hoards of women queuing up to abort babies at 36 weeks are there.

The point of the discussion is whether you think a woman has autonomy over her body at all times whether pregnant or not.

If you have a cut off date for sbortuon then you obviously do not think this. You also don't think the average woman is capable of deciding for herself what is right for her body.

I have never ever heard of a woman requesting a termination at 36+ weeks just because she's sick of being pregnant!

Has anyone?

SuburbanRhonda · 08/04/2014 13:50

I also wasn't aware women (or anyone for that matter) had a "right" to murder a newborn baby, so I'm not sure exactly what it is you're rejecting there, chew.

I see you've lost none of your charm overnight, bum Wink

Dawndonnaagain · 08/04/2014 13:51

But in actual fact a woman can't abort at 38 weeks can she, ergo what we are discussing is a philosophical point - should a woman have complete autonomy regarding her body or not.
I say yes and other posters say yes, Bumbley says no.

SuburbanRhonda · 08/04/2014 13:52

And it's a yes from me.

JeDeLo · 08/04/2014 13:52

I think it's disgusting. Would they like it if people who didn't agree with religion decided to hold a vigil outside their church to intimidate them when they came to worship?

SuburbanRhonda · 08/04/2014 13:56

They wouldn't like it, jedelo, but it would give them an opportunity to wheel out the "Christians are being persecuted in Britain" bandwagon, which I believe hasn't had a proper airing for, oh at least a few weeks.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/04/2014 14:25

And it's a yes from me.

As early as possible, as late as necessary. I would allow Baby a termination to lessen her torment over the next 12 weeks - Bumbley wouldn't.

Because she believes her beliefs are "right" and that takes precedence over women having rights over their own wombs.

thebody · 08/04/2014 14:26

chew so after 24 weeks pregnant a woman simply looses the rights over her body. She looses the right to be a free thinking adult human being. She is an incubated and her wishes are subservient to her baby and to any other random her, like you and bum?

She can be forced against her will to carry a baby and give birth.

Could she be operated on then against her consent if the operation was to be performed on the baby in her body?

thebody · 08/04/2014 14:28

To add we are all aware of the law as it is now.

ChewbaccasSister · 08/04/2014 14:28

TheBody - yes, in my line of work I have met several women who in all seriousness wanted their pregnancies terminated very late in the day for reasons such as "I've changed my mind" and "I've decided I don't want it anymore". So thank goodness the law is there otherwise some women would want it.

Also you are right. Because I believe that the law as it stands is correct in having a cut off date, then I obviously do not think a woman should have autonomy at all times regarding her pregnancy, and therefore body.

I think the vast majority of women are capable of deciding what is best for them and their body but two points

A) through my work I meet too many women who are not capable of deciding this, and have been defined in law as lacking that capability, and the rules need to apply to ALL women, not just the average woman
B) the law agrees with me

You suggest that thinking women should have autonomy over their body at all times whether pregnant or not is a good thing.

I have seen, and been involved in, many circumstances where a woman's bodily autonomy has been removed from her for her own best interests e.g. I have sedated a very distressed mental health patient under restraint, as they were kicking and screaming that they did not want the injection. If I had not administered it, they would have again tried to reopen the wound we had just closed up where she had tried to kill herself. So I sedated her to give her time to calm down, stop her opening her wounds, and to give us time to deal with them. We took away her bodily autonomy against her will. Would I do it again, in a heartbeat. When she was well enough to go home to her family, she thanked me for what we had done for her.

So your whole stance on bodily autonomy in all situations is naive, as it seems to only apply to people who think like you do.

Oh, and for the record, I have physically stopped a pregnant lady from running into the wall over and over with her very pregnant stomach trying to kill her baby.

However, as you seem to believe in bodily autonomy whether pregnant or not in all circumstances (except ones you clearly haven't thought of), clearly I should have let her get on with it. In your world.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 08/04/2014 14:44

Dawn, I see you also missed my last post to baby.

Here's her response to it:

TheBabyFacedAssassin Sun 06-Apr-14 12:15:56
Bumbley - I don't want your pity or your damn flowers.
I just wanted you to show some compassion.
Your opinion, which is unfortunately favoured by the law, is precisely why women like me have to go through this inhumane torture.
I can speak, from experience, and say I would never willingly go through this if there were any other option. And that's precisely why you just have to 'cope' whatever the hell that even means.

I bet that made you feel warm and fuzzy didn't it, bum?

Dawndonnaagain · 08/04/2014 14:44

Chew
You are going to come up with unusual case scenarios time and again.
Let's face it, someone who is not mentally competant cannot make some decisions, that's what the mental health act is for.
This is not what we are discussing.

twofingerstoGideon · 08/04/2014 14:46

TheBody - yes, in my line of work I have met several women who in all seriousness wanted their pregnancies terminated very late in the day for reasons such as "I've changed my mind" and "I've decided I don't want it anymore". So thank goodness the law is there otherwise some women would want it.

I'm sure there are women who might say this, but in reality would do nothing of the sort if they were able to. How many women on 'One Born Every Minute' are seen screaming 'I don't want to have this baby!' or 'I don't want to do this anymore!'

twofingerstoGideon · 08/04/2014 14:49

(and what Dawn said...)

ChewbaccasSister · 08/04/2014 14:53

Really, well if you would like the law to allow women to have abortions up to term, it would be rather prejudicial to deny this right to women who are mentally unwell, who may well be the very women who would feel unable to cope with pregnancy a such a late stage and WANT to terminate it.

In my world, these circumstances are not exceptional. I deal with drug addicts, alcoholics, victims of abuse, chaotic lifestyles, paedophiles and paedophilia on a daily basis, and our caseload is HUGE. So maybe in your neatly categorised AVERAGE world, maybe they are exceptional. As an actual occurance in society, sadly very common. The law has to apply to ALL women, that's why it a law, not just guidelines.

It amuses me to think that we could make such a decision on the woman's behalf under the Mental Health Act. Clearly you are not aware that it does not apply to physical conditions such as pregnancy.

People thought of all this and more besides when they kept the cut off at 24 weeks for all but exceptional circumstances. Think they took into account all these factors and more.

And to put it really bluntly, if you abort a foetus at 38 weeks for non-medical reasons then you are legally a baby killer. But clearly you are more comfortable with that so long as its the PC standpoint.
.

twofingerstoGideon · 08/04/2014 14:57

'PC'

Bingo!

differentnameforthis · 08/04/2014 14:58

To terminate a say 38 week old foetus is surely killing a baby? One that happens to be happily ensconced in the womb rather than having been born yet?

terminations so late are usually done for very good reasons. Not many women get to 38 weeks & suddenly wake up not wanting to be pregnant.

Believe me, if you are carrying an unwanted pregnancy, you want it out of you ASAP!P

Perhaps I need to repost this, posted earlier in the thread

Abortions where gestation has exceeded its twenty-fourth week account for less than 0.1% of the total. There were 160 such abortions in 2012"

LESS THAN 0.1% of termination in 2012 exceeded 24 weeks.

thebody · 08/04/2014 14:59

chew are you a qualified nurse, me too.

I have never ever in all my years as a nurse, and I worked on the district ever ever had a heavily pregnant woman request an abortion for frivolous reasons ever.

Again you mention mental incapacity? That wasn't the issue being discussed. That is quite separate and of course dealt with under the mental health act and by the courts. So that issue isn't in this discussion.

I too have administered drugs and treatments but with authority from the law in the patients best interest. Not needed to discuss here.

A woman running into a wall to potentially kill her unborn child could be out of total desperation or mental illness and a qualified doctor would assess her.

Perhaps like those poor women like baby she had been denied the safe abortion she needed/wanted by people like you?

I am not sure why you assume we are naive? You don't have the answers as a presumably medical professional and neither do I?

That's why it's for the woman concerned to decide.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 08/04/2014 15:00

Chew with respect, your examples are not relevant. Laws are not based on extreme and exceptional cases, they are based on what a reasonable person would do.

thebody · 08/04/2014 15:02

chew not to be rude but if you really can't differentiate between mental incapacity/mental illness and a fully functioning sane woman then you may be in the wrong job.

If you are a doctor that's scary, if you are a qualified nurse you follow the care plan.

Dawndonnaagain · 08/04/2014 15:03

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Dawndonnaagain · 08/04/2014 15:05

In my world, these circumstances are not exceptional.
But out in the big wide world it is exceptional.

I've just asked for a show of hands from about forty doctors. Not one has sanctioned an abortion above 24 weeks.