To think holding a vigil outside Marie Stopes is wrong? and to wish there was something I could do (may be upsetting)

[Menolly]

The local Catholic church is planning another vigil next week outside Marie Stopes, I am Catholic although attend a different parish (because I disagree with this ones overly judgmental congregation and uncaring priest). I think it is a horrible thing to be doing, I can see the clinic from my flat and at the last one they blocked the pavement meaning that people had to ask them to move to get through, whether they were going to the clinic or up the road (which leads to the high street, train stations, bus stops etc.).

They do move out the way when asked and they are peaceful whilst there, just singing and praying the rosary, however if I was a teenage girl going in for advice or was in some terrible situation where I needed their services I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to push my way through. Ignoring the fact that the clinic also does STD testing, contraceptive advice, smear tests etc, an abortion isn't an easy thing to go through whatever the circumstances and I think adding to that stress is a terrible thing to do, then considering that these people don't know that the woman they are upsetting aren't going there because they've been raped or because of some other horrible circumstance it makes me really angry.

My eldest child was conceived through rape when I was just 15, I kept him and he's beautiful and I have never regretted that decision but I had a lot of family support that other women might not have and there was a time when I did look at my options and having a bunch of judgmental people singing outside whilst I was trying to get advice would have made things much harder for me at a time when I seriously considered suicide, I hated myself for letting that happen to me and felt guilty for all the stress it put on my parents, I felt I was being judged constantly and lost my own faith for a long time because I couldn't stand the thought that God would let that happen or the guilt and judging associated with church and I hate the idea that people would do something so insensitive and could push someone to making the wrong decision or feeling even worse.

I find the vigils upsetting and I could hear them singing from my living room last time, what I went through was nearly 10 years ago now, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for someone who had been through something more recently or had less support.

I just wish there was something I could do to make these people, who I am sure think they are doing a good thing, see how harmful their vigil could be, but so far I can't think of any way of doing that...

So AIBU to think they shouldn't being doing this? Also if anyone can think of a peaceful way of showing my disgust I'd be grateful.

I cannot believe we are discussing this again. It makes my blood boil to hear that people are in support of protesters standing outside a clinic!! Certainly they have the right to protest but surely the Christian belief encourages Christians to be mindful of other peoples feelings and standing outside a clinic protesting whilst totally ignorant of those peoples reasons for going there is just fucking sick.

I am one of those women who, had I the choice, would be availing of the marie stopes facility. Unfortunately I live in Northern Ireland which causes a whole other raft of difficulties that the previous thread discussed in part. I am currently 26 almost 27 weeks pregnant with my first child who has a fatal condition and will not survive once born. This is a very much wanted child and the decision to terminate would not have been taken lightly. (The reasons for why we were not able to terminate is for a whole different thread...) I wonder do any of those 'Christians' think about families in my situation while they stand outside with their placards singing their songs? Being in this situation is hellish enough without people implying that women like me will go to hell for going through with a termination.

This is an extreme situation I understand but people need to be aware of the spectrum of individuals who utilise the services Marie Stopes offers. And moreover, as a previous poster made reference to, a lot of these people would benefit from some comfort rather than judgement.

You could be an escort to and from the path.

I agree they are scum.

Yes, OP, you could offer your services as an escort to the clinic, as MrsY suggests.

I had an argument a couple of years ago about this on facebook. I was brought up Catholic. I believe in God, I believe in Christ but I struggle very much with the Church and a lot of what it does.

I went to the uni Catholic society when I was in my third year, for some tee total fun.. They regularly sent stuff to all the society members on facebook.

I was sent a video of an abortion being carried out in a manner that would not be routinely done in the western world at all. I suspect the foetus had died in the uterus. So probably not a termination at all.

They then sent a list of abortion tools (?!) including a picture of what I know to be a Roman vaginal speculum.

Well that was it for me.

I freaked - and told them how utterly disgusted I was, that they were trying to drive fear into
women by manipulation and lies. I worried members would see these ridiculous pictures and get an entirely false perspective, and might be put off vital treatment including smear tests.

I don't think I won the argument - several militant Catholics joined in saying the equipment used for such things should be scary?!

There was zero acknowledgement of babies conceived through rape, abuse, incest, babies who have died in utero, babies who have conditions such as anencephaly, cases where continuing with the pregnancy might harm the mother..

Fwiw I did accidentally counsel a girl, online, within hours of her having had a termination. I couldn't possibly have berated her - she was so upset, telling me she couldn't flush the toilet because she was bleeding.

I don't think Jesus would have berated her either.

I also don't think He would agree with a 'one size fits all' policy! Its ridiculous to treat all cases exactly the same.

I would phone the police to be honest. Unfortunately my argument showed me that if someone wants to believe something there's very, very little you can do to change that - there was no reasoning with them in my experience.

TheBabyFaced
I am so sorry at what you are having to go through. I sincerely hope the person to twofingers refers reads your posts and backs off for a change.

there is nothing peaceful about their vigil it is done to makes other feel guilt and shame

you want to pray for lost souls do so where you will not be causing harm to others

I am not sure what you can do put point that out anyone who would take part in these vigils have no care for the feels of women that use the service only on their own beliefs

I would go there with my own placard saying 'do what's right you for and fuck these judgey bastards.'

Genuinely.

BabyFaced

you need placards that say things like, 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' and 'judge not lest you be judged'.

you could also just choose to be there and keep the path clear re: when someone is coming say excuse me, move out the way, etc and ensure they're not in people's way.

i really don't want to see us become like the U.S and what may be 'peaceful vigils' (i don't believe it is peaceful btw as it clearly hurts people and confronts people at a time of crisis and that isn't peace) today are a bit of a slippery slope to the kind of aggressive and hideous behaviour outside of clinics that happens in the U.S.

oh yes and the Catholic Church standing up for the rights of women and children?

almost laughable.

sorry but for me the Catholic Church puts into my mind

laundries, cruelty, widespread abuse of children swept under the carpet, and mysoginistic hypocrites.

Babyfaced. Wishing you strength.

Dawn,

Thank you. Unfortunately I know who two fingers is referring to and it would be highly unlikely if she were to concede...

I'm going to have to leave this thread as I am getting too upset.

But op, YANBU and if you were closeby I would come and do a counter protest with you.

i would join you too OP.

i was raised as a catholic and am very familiar with biblical teachings and would be quite happy to explain to them how their behaviour was the antithesis of the teachings of the man they claim to follow.

YANBU, they are in fact putting lives in danger IMHO.

Some of these women will be seeking advice and support to continue their pregnancy healthily and safely. By making it difficult for them to access this support they are endangering the life of both mother and baby.

By making it difficult for people to go for std testing they are endangering their long term health. Untreated STIs can affect fertility and increase the risk of miscarriage and still birth therefore they are endangering the life of future babies.

I know they disagree with contraception but there can be very strong medical reasons why a woman must not become pregnant. For them falling pregnant could kill the mum and baby.

Making it difficult to get a smear test could delay diagnosis of problems. This could be fatal to the woman.

The life of the woman is sacred too. As an aside forcing the continuation of a pregnancy that would kill the mum and baby doesn't preserve life, it ensures 2 deaths rather than one. Some abortions are for this very reason.

I speak as someone who is against abortion and refused to have one after rape. I'm also a Christian who was taught to love the sinner and taught that compassion for all others is important.

BabyFacethe overwhelming majority of posters on mumsnet will offer you nothing but support, sympathy and love.

take care of yourself.

another thought - protesting outside clinics is not the same as other kinds of protesting imo. i'm very pro protesting and the freedom to do so but the reality is that protests tend to be against governments, policies or economic systems for example. they don't tend to be against people and people's choices or to target vulnerable individuals in a time of crisis.

i've nothing against them protesting at downing street or wherever if they want to change policy but to protest outside a clinic and with individual service users as the people on the receiving end is totally wrong and totally different.

yes i think we have the right of protest, no i don't think we have the right to be in the face of individuals going about their business with the intention of hurting them or making them feel bad and to call that 'protest'. that is in fact just abusive and harassment.

Babyface [thanks}

OP it may also be worth a call to the centre to let them know the date and time the 'protest' is planned for? I'm sure some centres are used to being picketed and staff themselves accordingly but if this one isn't regularly targeted they may appreciate a heads-up.

I'm sure, for example, that if they know they'll ring round the women who have appointments that day and offer to reschedule (where possible).

I'm Catholic and I think what they're doing is hideous. Agree with MrsY.

Having used the clinics myself I cannot begin to imagine how much worse it could have been if there had been people with candles and placards outside. The women who will have to endure this have my sympathy.

If you do have the nerve to go there and just hold a placard "Judge not lest ye be judged" is a good one. And just quietly try to keep things clear.

I did say this to a "vigil for murdered babies" I passed on the way to the train station regularly. Not that it stopped them but I couldn't let them think all the passersby were giving tactit support.

You could be an escort to and from the path.

Yes MrsY that crossed my mind, but how would one do it?

I am Catholic and what they are doing is just disgusting.

How dare they try and humiliate women - its not a protest its a witch hunt and it makes my blood boil

I mean, in a special tabard? Or just approaching nervous women and offering to walk them through the crowd? How would they know you weren't another loony person?

Some kind of organised escort scheme would be a great idea.

twofingers, I thought the same thing, I guess you know what I was referring to in my PP.

I'm a Catholic and these people are the scum of the earth imho.

They don't care about babies, or women, they just like to get off on their own sanctimony.

Babyface so sorry to hear this.

I just wrote and deleted a long post about what my (RC) grandmother had to go through in the 1930's in a similar situation but then decided it was too upsetting. Suffice to say that the church has a lot to answer for.