Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

is there any other group that the word 'bitter' is more frequently applied to than childless women?

I know my friend gets fed up of people asking how she feels about not having children, whether she feels that she missed out, does she regret it. She notes that people wouldn't generally ask someone if they regretted that they did have children and outsiders have no idea whether she's childless through choice or necessity

This is how I often feel.

Sounds more like fairness to woman with children. And that is good isn't it?

Zeezee - you don't have to explain anything to me - damned if you, damned if you don't. Things are changing now, there at least is a social 'veneer' that the usual, usual, step this way. that way, altogether now... at least appears to be a bit more forgiving with the definition of 'norm'.

But then I thought that 10 years ago, and for 10 years before that and now I think about it another 10 years before that.

Oh for goodness sake - I've realized that I've lived long enough to say that we've actually gone backwards...jeez, we're wierdos.

Yahayy..,dancey, dancey. dance around...just a couple more years of this Aged P shit and those that have had their wings clipped will be out and about jiggling our thangs (yea thangs not thongs - that's a creation post-wierdo jangly that should never have been created!).

Because it just ain't true right now - and we need some peace-loving truth. And all that kind of t'ing.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime - only the ones who don't have a DP or DH -equally insulting.

Have never known men act as bitchy and arsey as women.

I have never seen complaints about children's behaviour being made by people without children on mumsnet. Unless it's a deliberate trolling from outside.

I have seen people without children coming on here and saying "help me understand this child's/parent's behaviour because it is outwith my experience"

kicks I don't have children and I like it here as people are clever and funny and good to talk to. I don't tend to go in the specific parenting bits of the forum but loads of the discussions are not about children at all.

OP I agree with you to some extent about unfair treatment etc but not your last two points about dying alone or not having anyone to play with at weekends being a 'given' if you're childfree - what about other family/friends etc.

Tbh having dc has changed me and my outlook a great deal - but isn't each persons individual experience of themselves just that - individual?

I have thought and worried a lot more about death and aging than I did before - it just didn't register for me before - so it has changed my outlook. But you have been through something huge which is a far greater potential to change a persons perspective on life and death than any child - which means that we came to the point of being parents from v different places -had my own issues and challenges which are just that - mine - and yours are your own. Surely it can be interesting to debate such concepts as we all bring our own perspective.

The only time I think i have said you don't get it' is when people have said things like
'I am going to study Italian and enjoy the rest during my maternity leave '
Or
'He can just play on the floor while we have supper can't he'

Stuff like that that I might have said pre DC

zeezeek Mon 31-Mar-14 21:06:32

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime - only the ones who don't have a DP or DH -equally insulting.

IME:
women plus DH/P plus DC = rarely described as bitter
women plus DC only = bitter about the lack of man
women plus DH/P only = bitter about the lack of DC
woman on her own = most bitter

I don't think the same is said of men.

You didn't study Italian during your maternity leave?!

Joking apart, I hate that the OP has turned this into yet another 'how women are worse than men' thread. Really, OP?

Good point Nugget - and I don't have a problem with non-parents being on the site, I just don't understand the hostility from some posters towards parents and children on a parenting forum!

In any case, I don't believe I've ever uttered the words "You don't understand because you don't have children" - but have definitely thought it at times when someone has presumed to have had an experience that they equated with my very different experience as a mother.

Ps didn't have dc till my 30's so spent plenty of time as a childless woman and I didn't have so much of this you don't understand till you have dc talk - not to the point it was bothersome or even registered that it happened.

But when you share experiences with others what they have to bring to the table is their own knowledge and experience - and a lot of people have dc and having dc can be life changing - so will naturally figure in conversation.

Having my ds didn't change my outlook on anything...it just made me discover how mean most poeple can be, given the chance to be mean - and underlined my belief that there are some really decent people out there, irrespective of one's reproductive situation.

Today's featured blog has an interesting take on the matter - does having children inexorably turn you from Lizzy Bennet into Mrs Bennet?

headinbooks.wordpress.com/2014/03/30/becoming-mrs-bennet/

Oh, I was going to say that I too suspect that there is a certain sort of opportunity at work that I get offered because people know that I don't have to be picking up children at 3.30pm. I don't think I could say it's actively unfair, because people who have to be elsewhere can't take it on, but I notice that they don't get offered the opportunity either.

People can never really understand what it is like to be another person.

Of course I don't know what it is like to have children, a glimpse maybe, but not full understanding. I also don't have a real understanding of what it is like to be 80 years old or a politician or a teacher, or have MS or be male, or poor, or rich or anything else.

A few years ago both of us were childless but that doesn't mean I understand you or vice versa.

kicksandgiggles " THERE is the self important,entitled attitude!

i am childfree by choice,i also choose to frequent Mumsnet because i find it entertaining and informative...and it has plenty of boardz NOT dedicated to child rearing. You,however,seem to think this is an elite club and only those who chose to breed should be allowed in.

OP,i understand what you mean. I came across this attitude a lot when my older sis had her first child. She automatically assumed i would be 'on hand' to babysit and got all in a huff when i told her i was moving to the other end of the country as part of my promotion at work....and she couldn't be happy for me. Bear in mind she never discussed her pregnancy plans with me or asked me if i wanted to adjust my work life in order to accomodate her plans. Then came the inevitable drone of 'you don't understand/know what it means until you've had children yourself'...in response to any comment i made where i mentioned being tired/stressed/skint etc.

In work,i've lost count of the amount of times this attitude has caused problems in the team/department. On quite a few occasions i have had to take the issue of holidays and 'emergency days' to HR... because those with children kept booking all the best holiday dates-some of them would actually book them a year in advance and pencil it in at the end of the calendar,so when the new holiday calendar went up all the best dates etc were already taken. It was also ok for them to have numerous 'emergency days' or leave early if it was family related (no mention of making up the time) but if one of us childfree people (male OR FEMALE) needed the same the general attitude was that we 'need to organise' our lives better! It also didn't help that a lot of my managers at the time were women-and mothers-so the bitchy clique that formed was terrible and led to bullying. The attitude basically was that if you don't have children then your life and your needs were less important and it was your duty to pick up everybody elses slack because tbey were 'doing the hardest job in the world'.
The other phrase i keep hearing is 'these kids will pay for your care and retirement'.....errrrr NO THEY WON'T! The retirement age for my peer group is 75 (at the moment!) and more than likely we will have to work til we drop dead. Also,the cost to the tax payer of raising children is enormous and cancels out any tax contributions that child may make in 25 years.

Thankfully,many of my friends who have children DON'T have this entitled,self-important attitude so it's not all pervasive.

You got me twizzle. I feel entitled to use a parenting forum BECAUSE I AM A PARENT. What a cunt I am.

Err twizzle - about the booking holidays in advance.

I always book in advance - school holidays are expensive so the earlier you get in the less expensive it is. Flight bookings are available approx 11 months in advance - I don't choose the date, the airlines do. Therefore yes, I book my holidays well in advance.

I wouldn't say that school holidays are the best dates, personally I'd much rather go abroad in May/June or September when the weather isn't quite as hot and holidays are a lot cheaper, or have the opportuntiy to buy last minute cheap holidays off season, but hey ho there we go.

I agree that holidays like Christmas should be divied up equally and agree it's unfair that anyone gets first dibs on these.

Oh and on the emergency days, not quite sure what parents are meant to do if their DCs are unexpectedly ill without emergency leave. I have been very lucky (touch wood) as DS is rarely ill and when he has been, I have already worked enough overtime ( yes we part timers do that when we work beyond our contracted hours, but you may not notice as it falls into your regular working day) to cover the time off.

Actually I take less emergency leave than most in our office - because I work p/t I arrange for deliveries/ house repairs/dental appointments etc to be during my non working time.

kicksandgiggles " it is often the single, childless women who get treated preferentially as they seem to be viewed as more serious professionals"

Not in my experience. We are seen as 'serious professionals' when staying back late, covering the work for absent staff, being able to accomodate 'last minute plans' etc....but at the same time we DON'T get treated seriously because people have this attitude that we will just up and leave whenever we feel like it because we 'have nothing stopping us (as in kids)'...or we won't be there for long because 'NATURALLY' we will want to get married/start a family and will take time off for that. The worst cases i've seen were where the childfree were passed over for promotion and it went to someone with kids because 'they have responsibilities'!! This is despite the childfree person having put in more work and more hours than the other. I've seen that happen on at least 3 occasions and there's bugger all you can do it about it really. i mean you can take it to HR and your Union...but then it makes your working life very difficult in the office so then you end up having to change jobs anyway.

surely women with children are discriminated in some ways and women without children in others.

men seem to get away with both statuses.

I would always be the one who had to stay late if something came up, because I didn't have to get home for the children (no overtime payments of course). I was always the one who had to stay late to do the urgent work that hadn't been done because someone else had to go off early to deal with their children. I was always the one who was told to wait to book my holidays until after the parents had booked theirs. I was always the one who had to cover between Christmas & the New Year so parents got a proper break with their children. I accepted that I didn't have the out of work responsibilities that parents have, though sometimes felt that maybe I was being a little bit put upon because I didn't have children.

I did put my foot down finally when one of the "having DCs trumps all" brigade tried to insist that their child's school event was much more important than me taking my father to his (terminal) cancer appointment, so I should cancel my leave in their favour.

kicks it was this comment that i was referring to when i said you had an entitled and self-important attitude
I don't understand why people who have consciously decided not to have children choose to spend their time on a parenting forum....as though the opinions and views of the childfree were less valid or that the whole forum was about child rearing