Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

[maddening]

iamrecharching - absolutely your experience is right as that is your experience - you are you partly through your experience - other's experience it differently and that is right to - there's no point feeling slighted by other people's experiences of their own lives it's just a different point of view - we all have life changing experiences not always mutually exclusive of each experience and then some are shared - parenting is a shared experience but hugely individual when you bring in backgrounds, environment, personalities, social norms and acceptance, spirituality, intelligence, talents that it's natural that we all come out with different ideas of how it is for us - and it can only round your understanding of others and the world around you to listen to another's point of view and accept it for what it is.

but if someone was outwardly spiteful or negative about a persons lifestyle because they haven't had dc then that is vu but surely it's ok for a person who has dc to share their experiences as a parent with a person without dc - there will always be things that people experience that you will never experience or understand

[badbride]

Ironically, the sort of numpty who tells me that "I couldn't possibly understand" what it's like to have a child is also the sort of numpty who won't stop bloody going on about what it's like to have a child.

Added to that is the never-ending stream of OBEM and Supernanny shows on the telly, the bazillion mummy/daddy blogs on the net, sites like Mumsnet and the countless books on babies and parenting you see in the shops.

Consequently, my understanding of what it's like to have a child, while by no means perfect, is actually quite good. Fortunately, most of the parents I know are not numpties, and are able to credit me with the intelligence and empathy to put myself in their shoes. Which I try to do.

[kicksandgiggles]

Well, we have all had our own experiences. I have often seen and felt discrimination against women with children in the workplace - and just like you said you had a clique of bitchy mothers in management Twizzle, I have worked for an organisation where management was a clique of bitchy, childless women who had no compassion whatsoever for working mothers. I agree that it isn't right for single people to be expected to constantly work late, holidays, etc - which I think is more of an issue of bad management than the fault of the parents themselves.

This all goes back to the point that none of us should presume to understand situations we haven't personally been in - parents or otherwise.

[PansOnFire]

Although there are the 'superior' mothers who like to rub it in others's faces that they are parents, I don't think every comment about 'you don't understand' is meant to be a dig. I think it's probably true.

Before I had my DS I wouldn't have understood, in fact I don't understand what it's like to have more than one child and I don't take offence at that despite wanting another child desperately. People who don't have children don't understand what it's like to have their priorities torn between their children and the career that puts a roof over their head, it's not an insult it's the truth. Having to leave at the first available minute after work isn't something I revel in to put more work on my colleagues, it's because there is a small person waiting to be picked up and I have no one else to help me. My dog is ok without me or supervision for a few hours, but I know this isn't the case for all dogs and I've had to take time off work for my dog as well as my child, however, it's not a direct comparison on a day to day basis.

OP of course not everyone has the same experience and yours seems different to mine, but suggesting that every comment around 'you wouldn't understand because you don't have children' is quite short sighted.

[twizzleship]

rookiemater i understand school holidays are expensive...but why should the childfree have to 'settle' for what's left? How is it fair when the same people get ALL the best times, i.e when the weather is good/the long weekends around bank holidays etc? Afterall, having children was a lifestyle choice they made so why should the childfree be made to settle for less?

As for emergency leave, my gripe about that is the attitude i've come across in the workplace when it is a childfree person requesting emergency leave as opposed to a parent.

[badbride]

Pans: I'd argue that if someone doesn't understand something as basic as a parent's need to care for their child being more important to that parent than working late at the office, then it has more to do with that someone being a thoughtless a**hole than being childless.

[GreenLandsOfHome]

Added to that is the never-ending stream of OBEM and Supernanny shows on the telly, the bazillion mummy/daddy blogs on the net, sites like Mumsnet and the countless books on babies and parenting you see in the shops.
Consequently, my understanding of what it's like to have a child, while by no means perfect, is actually quite good.

Seriously? That is so, so arrogant. So basically, you watch a couple of telly program's and read some blogs and feel you know what something is like?

[MidniteScribbler]

I think that changes in society have made this attitude more prevalent. Once upon a time we would have asked a few friends about something that concerned us, or whether we were being a bit precious. Now we can ask a whole internet and often get a response of 'of course not hun. You had a babeeee" which justifies things in our minds. You regularly see posters (on all sorts of forums) getting egged on to take actions they would once have laughed at themselves about. Websites like the Daily Mail see people getting their way (parking illegally because they breastfed, etc), and they think they should get it as well.

I've noticed it increasing quite a bit over the last five-ten years. Parents would once come in and discuss concerns with their child, we could sit down and discuss it and come to a solution or plan together. Now I frequently hear "on they internet they said that you have to ......." with the requisite foot stomping if you disagree with them. I also have parents demanding to be met with at all hours of the day and night as 'I'm a working parent dontcha know?".

You just have to look at a parent and child parking thread to see that the sense of entitlement has increased. My mother would never have even thought of any sort of right to a special parking spot.

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

people comment on things they have no experience or understanding of all the time on MN but the one most likely to trigger a remark is someone without children commenting on something (vaguely) child related.

the reason it is said always they disagree with the childless person. even though many parents have stated the same opinions as the childless person.

showing that the parent experience is not a single experience.

[twizzleship]

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime surely women with children are discriminated in some ways and women without children in others. men seem to get away with both statuses

So true! But then we have to ask ourselves how much of that is down to us women? Any by that i'm NOT referring to single parent households or households where one parent works abroad etc, i'm referring specifically to those that have two resident parents.

In my experience it is almost ALWAYS the woman who picks up the childcare related stuff - especially when it comes to emergency leave. Why don't more women INSIST on their partner doing an equal share? I don't care how 'high up' and 'important' the mans job is, or that he has 'important meetings to attend' (responses i've heard). We, as in us women, have to put our foot down with them. Men have to feel the same impact on their working lives that us women do in order for things to become more balanced...it is because in general we don't insist and just carry on the status quo so we end up 'sacrificing more' or 'losing out'

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

ah but twizzle, you see....

...you and I don't know what we are talking about....



(despite women who are parents supporting greater equality what really matters here is you and I don't have children)

[PansOnFire]

Good point badbride, there has to be an element of understanding from even the most harsh of people, but I guess I never really understood the enormity of it and the emotional side of it which, until someone has a child, someone will never really understand.

[twizzleship]

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime

[HomeIsWhereTheGinIs]

I've never liked the "You can't really understand" bit. I grew up in a large family with several babies around, with lots of siblings and cousins that lived close by and all of my friends (more or less) now have children. I think I've got a good idea of what I'm getting myself into. I don't understand why childrearing appears to suddenly elevate people to god-like status these days. Entitled parents impose their offspring onto people all over the place, demand that attention is paid to them regardless of surrounding, act sanctimonious if anyone else dares to complain they're tired / frustrated etc ("Wait until you have a baby...!"). My younger sister doesn't want children and it's always made me really cross that people talk to her in a patronising way that implies (as per the OP) that she'll never find the meaning of life unless she changes her mind....

Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to meet my baby. But I don't think that the world will suddenly revolve around me and that I suddenly get to jump to the front of every queue because I made the decision to procreate.

[lessonsintightropes]

I come at this from a range of different perspectives; TTC, a member of a large extended family with lots of kids on it, as an organisation that provides childcare, and someone who employs a lot of working parents some of whom on a part time/flexible/freelance basis.

Yes, I've experienced the highly insulting 'you could never understand' tripe, and also the 'mums should come first' thing with members of my team.

I have accommodated all requests for flexible working and tbh, there's such huge variation in performance and one woman does afaic use childcare as an excuse (tin hat in here - but leaving 3 x per month early afternoon and on average 1 dependency leave day a month leaves the rest of our team, all working mums but me, picking up her slack) and makes me think she just hasn't organised her home life well enough to manage a 4 day working week. Two other WOHM on my team are amazing and flexible and I support that flexibility (ie doing the occasional bid in the evening if get have needed to take time out in the day for childcare). Pain in the bum team member never bothers. Who do you think get raises?

I do always take one for my team in that I've not had a holiday in the summer for 6 years.

I think the biggest issue here is generalising by either 'side' if FGS we have to pick one...

[almondcake]

There are all kinds of misery and hardships that people face that others will make negative remarks about and be vastly insensitive about. That isn't unique to mothers or women who don't have children.

That doesn't change the fact that pregnant women and new mothers are a protected group under the law. Thw reason they got that protection was because they were and are discriminated against to a far greater degree than people who are not pregnant or not a new mother.

Now, either society as a whole discriminates against mothers (putting them at risk of poverty, poor job opportunities, less cultural, political and social roles of power which empirically it does) because they don't understand what it is like to be a mother, or because they do understand but just don't care.

So while I wouldn't make insensitive remarks to an individual, I will say to non mothers as a collective group, you either do not understand or you do not care. And I will go on arguing for the rights of mothers until all mothers and their young children globally have the rights that some of us enjoy.

It is a tragedy that some women who want children can't have them, just as it is a tragedy that some women who don't want a child are forced to have them. But globally and nationally, mothers are the disadvantaged and discriminated against group. If people cannot get time off work for elderly parents (a situation many mothers are also in), then the fault lies with the employer, not with mothers attempting to organise childcare.

[lessonsintightropes]

So while I wouldn't make insensitive remarks to an individual, I will say to non mothers as a collective group, you either do not understand or you do not care.

Wow, AlmondCake that is quite a generalisation.

Just out of interest, do you work outside the home? Do you understand that organisations have requirements?

Equally do you have any childless friends?

Your post comes across as bitter, mean and unpragmatic... Unless we're getting into the realm of fixing the structural problems both parents and companies face. Can't see either side of the spectrum implementing a Scandinavian solution any time soon.

How do you suppose we should all relate and work with each other in the meantime?

[GarlicMarchHare]

Vigorously nodding along with much of this.

I have never said, nor do I expect to say "You don't understand what it's like not to have children and accept you never will."

I can't think of any reason at all to say it. And I don't see good reason for the inverse to be uttered.

I will just add, here, that the correct response to "I don't have children and accept I never will" is NOT a mile of [sadfaces] OR an embarrassed half-turn away while you think of another subject! If I said it, it's because you asked. Deal with it. We still have more in common than we have differences (and that's the thing that many parents choose not to acknowledge.)

[GarlicMarchHare]

You've managed to infuriate me quite nicely with that stupid remark, AlmondCake. That you have any rights at all is thanks to my generation of women, who kept our jobs by not having children: thus enabling us to prove women deserve equal pay, equal rights, and better conditions for those who have children. There were no maternity rights when I started out; I fought hard for them, as for many other things enabling women's independence. I'm sorry to see you don't appear to care much for women unless they are mothers.

[GhettoPrincess]

zeezeek - you don't think men get as arsey and bitchy as women ! Blimey ! Yes they do.

[GhettoPrincess]

Home is Where the Gin is - what an intelligent post. I wish more 'breeders' had more of your intelligence and less of their own sense of entitlement/self importance.

It makes me furious the attitude that another woman is better than me because she had unprotected sex. How does that attitude work ?

[Funnyfoot]

I wish more 'breeders' had more of your intelligence and less of their own sense of entitlement/self importance.

Breeders? Is that what you call women who have children?

I wish you had the class of HomeiswheretheGinis Ghetto as I find your use of the word breeder when referring to a women who has children highly offensive.

[LibraryMum8]

OP, I have a lot in common with you. I also had a life threatening disease and didn't think I'd be able to have children. I had one mc, then ds, then another mc, then went into early menopause because of the chemo.

It was life changing to me, but I never felt anyone treated me unfairly before children. I Have had people tell me, "You can't have just one!" Well if you have mc's, chemo and early menopause on your side you indeed Can have just one!! Let's face it, some people just don't get it.

I have to say though an animal would never be the center of my universe whether I have children or not. Pets yes, love them yes, center of universe definitely not. JMO.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

I have to say I see more hostility from childless women towards those with children around..i.e calling them 'breeders' and thinking they are slightly dopey and child obsessed.

It is also outrageous that people ask personal questions to those without children.

I personally WAS different before having children and didn't really understand them. But that's because I didn't have experience of them.I'm sure others could understand kids without having them if they had had a lot to do with young children.

We are just all individuals living our lives as best we can though, is my opinion.people should concentrate on their own stuff and not judge others for their life paths.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

Ghetto..another woman is not better than another because she had unprotected sex.

She might be better if she was less rude and bitchy than her though.