Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

[BoomBoomsCousin]

Women get criticised whatever choices they make (or situations they find themsleves in) - my SIL had 3 under 5, she's been asked several times why she was so selfish given global population growth and the impact on the environment. Women with onlies get criticised for not giving their child a sibling. Women with none get criticised for not having children. Women with two of the same sex get criticised for not having one of each sex. I bet women with one of each get criticised for something, even if it's just extra tutting about their parenting techniques. Women with a small gap between children get blamed when they are overwhelmed and women with large gaps get blamed for spreading it out. Younger mothers get blamed, older mothers get blamed. IVF is villified by some.

I don't think our society likes the fact that only women can have children - it's almost seen as immoral - and so women are criticised for all outcomes.

[Lioninthesun]

Believe me, it gets a lot worse when you have one. Especially if you are on your own!
Oh to be a man with no expectations on you or responsibilities!

[StampyIsMyBoyfriend]

cheesybadger I'm mum to an only too, and I completely agree. At our school, the three under five is aspirational & I'm not a 'real' mummy to some. I'm a part timer, similar to owning a puppy... What do I do all day!? (Work, volunteer, clean the house as it happens) but since I don't have one in school, a baby and a toddler at home... I'm laughing! Never mind many of these mums have well paid husbands, and cleaners...

[zeezeek]

To clarify - it's the handing of the babies with the assumption that I want a cuddle with them that I hate, not the actual baby. However, as I'm totally useless with them (apart from my own) they scream the house down and need removing and soothing soon after!

[zeezeek]

Like someone said upthread, I also remember being expected to look after young children at family events (without asking if I minded) and also being handed babies - which, even now, I absolutely hate.

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

hello - yes it has worked out for me albeit in the strangest of ways: I have not had a child yet as the pregnancies have only ended in miscarriages but I am optimistic about the future.

DFs condition meant he became like a 6 foot toddler: needed spoon feeding and prone to tantrums. I don't know how anyone could ttc in the midst of that and I did not want to let my family down. enough people has already done that and there were only two of us left. to leave one person to care for a 6 foot toddler would be the actions of a total dickhead!

It will be nice to care for someone who learns and develops not loses the ability to do anything. I have learnt enough about death and dying for now. I want to learn about new life.

but the good thing about hard times is they make you more resilient for what life throws at you. I will live a good life whatever happens.

[CheesyBadger]

Thanks it annoys me as unless I am run off my feet, it doesn't count. My dd is quite quiet and yes does need a lot of time from me, so we read and play, go out etc just like everyone else. I don't doubt that more is a juggling act but I am just as much of a valid parent.

[HelloBoys]

sorry I meant to put, that people mean that one is far less hard work as a baby which is total rubbish!!!

[HelloBoys]

Cheesy that is ridiculous, so one is (well of course it is as only one child later on!) far less hard work eg as a baby etc. I suppose they'd only be happy if you had say 8 kids like Octomom.

People forget only children in effect need more attention, stimulus etc as they have no siblings to play with annoy etc.

and what if you can only have one child for health/age reasons etc?!

Ignore the idiots who say that re one child!

[HelloBoys]

Deathwatch - yes so true re kids looking after their parents in old age not necessarily being true or the right thing!

My friend (see post before) who got pregnant at 18 did so partly so escape her mother who was quite ill and made statements like "Cassandra will look after me when I'm in a wheelchair". Cassandra of course was having none of it, moved out as soon as she got pregnant. ironically when things went tits up when her DC were both 5 and 3 she actually moved to the same small seaside town where her mother lived with the help of her mother, to sort of help out (but then mother and daughter fell out again for good).

What happens also, if say the child dies before the parent, they can't look after the parent then.

and like you say some kids have diabolical NC relationships with parents and would either cut ties completely or put parents in a home whatever happened.

[CheesyBadger]

I also get comments along the lines of I have no idea as I only have one. Apparently in some circles, parenting only counts when you have a brood

[HelloBoys]

YouAre - as far as I can recall I was about 20ish when those comments were first said, once from a teenage mother best friend of mine who was bitter at having got pregnant at 18 and regretted at the time (not later) having kids then.

The other people I think said it were probably a close work colleague, friend of my mum's, close friend etc and said at times in late 20s/early 30s. But it was also when I was in an awful relationship (longterm) where if I'd got pregnant it would be have been dire to have kids then.

I agree if you're TTC via IVF etc then you will be more sensitive than at another more carefree time.

so sorry you had to delay TTC due to caring but one does what one can at the time - re your parents. Some people would TTC regardless of your situation. Glad it worked out well for you!

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

helloboys - I guess where you are at in your life largely determines how comments such as "You'll have kids one day", "You don't know what it's like to be a mother" are taken.

I can imagine when i was twenty something if someone said that to me just thinking 'what an old fart' and thinking no more of it (not saying now the old fart remark was ok!) but then someone e.g. who has recently has failed IVF is not going to take it so lightly.

we had to delay ttc due to being responsible for 2 terminally ill parents (I was secondary carer for someone effectively tetraplegic). with the lower chance of success i was aware that trying for a baby makes you vulnerable to failure whereas deciding to not try can be quite self affirming.

[Deathwatchbeetle]

Its funny when the issue of "you don't have kids so no one to look after you in your old age" ears its ugly head. Fine, yes true for me but just because you have had kids doesn't mean they will want to look after you in your old age. They may move to another country or just chuck you in a home or go non contact!

[HelloBoys]

YouAre - I'm 42.

But you know something, when I was younger, sometimes in a kindly way sometimes not so much - I'd be advised by other women (young and old and same age as me) that "You'll have kids one day", "You don't know what it's like to be a mother" etc - different from mother to mother.

To be honest most women I know (me included) thought we would have kids by a certain age, indeed when I was 30 and above I saw late 30s as running out of time to have children so it's acceptable but certainly seen by some as maybe missing the boat.

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

chrome & helloboys - would you mind if I ask how old you are, the reason being I wonder if childless women are treated differently at different ages by society.

maybe its acceptable to be childless up to say mid thirties?

[HelloBoys]

chrome just reading your message, I agree with you. There has not been as far as I've been aware any cases of me being treated badly at work because of me being childless.

And like you say no one has suggested (to my face!) that I'm bitter or bitchy either. I think it is maybe unspoken if that but maybe I'm oversensitive on that!

It's true - the women who I know who have children at work always have to juggle time off (with older children its much easier) and though some socialise on the whole some do seem more tired and stressed.

Of course I know a few part time working mothers who also have au pairs (yes lucky them) but many mothers I know now, have given up work and are not working whilst children are under 5 - these women are in architecture/marketing too and they do take on the odd bit of work here and there but it's very much SAHM based.

[chrome100]

I'm childless and have never once felt that I have been treated badly because of it. Holidays are very fair at work and no one has ever suggested (to my face at least!) that I might be bitter and bitchy.

In fact, my status as "childless" never even crosses my mind. If anything, I think it's the parents who are hard done by at work - they always have to rush off, never see things to completion, don't get to socialise and always seem tired and stressed.

[heisenberg999]

I dont usually mind im at a job now and taking all maternity appointments in my own time just to be helpful. However just really would prefer dh to keep his job.

[shanghidawn]

It really does!

[GarlicAprilShowers]

Makes you feel better about working there, doesn't it shang :)

[shanghidawn]

Some jobs are like that...my old one was pretty similar and until recently so was this one. We were told 2 years ago that should anyone have anything that impacted upon their productivity then they would be on capability which would lead to dismissal within 6 weeks. I questioned if this applied to life changing events - death of children etc and was told "We have to draw the line somewhere and 6 weeks is adequate". Now I work under a new line manager and was recently told to book an appointment I had tried for weeks to get out of work time because, she said "If you need this appointment then go, I want you to get better." I think it takes a boss with a bit of morals and understanding about life.

[heisenberg999]

We both work in manual jobs the kind that being off your boss acts like the world has ended. In my old job if I or the manager went off the business couldnt even legally open as no one to replace us. I never ever go off sick with my children or otherwise, and I havent for years. Its not the done thing.

[GarlicAprilShowers]

This is why I'd like to see it legislated. It will change presentee cultures in a way that no amount of discussion can do.

[heisenberg999]

They will say no they go crazy when he rings in sick to look after children and try everything to guilt trip dads not to take 2 weeks paternity. I have never known a job that would allow this for mothers. My old boss would just find a way to get rid as uncommited.