Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

[matildasquared]

"you don't understand what it is like to get older knowing that there is no-one to spend Christmas/holidays/weekends with"
"you don't understand what it is like to worry that you are going to die alone"

This honestly doesn't bother me. I don't know if I'm just Rainman or what, but it's a non-issue to me.

If I do have kids, it's not so that I'll have built-in company each Christmas for the rest of my life. There are always close friends and their children, partners, new friends. Or skip Christmas and travel somewhere!

And dying alone--I kind of hope I do die alone. Why would it be more pleasant to die in some crowded place? I like my solitude.

[WillieWaggledagger]

I also assume that no two parents have the same experience - e.g. someone who hasn't had a baby born prematurely will never know what that is really like, whether they have children or not. You can imagine and empathise but never truly feel it, and everyone experiences different things differently. While I'm sure there are some universal truths about parenthood, I would hazard a guess that by being a parent you don't automatically have the wisdom to understand every parenting issue

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

YY, me too, matilda, I feel that is not on, that comparison.

zee - erm ... but there will be some things you can't understand, won't there? That's not better or worse, but different.

Many women are told they can't have children, and go on to have them (and I think that's a dodgy statement if you think about adoptive mothers, isn't it?!).

Many women (and sadly I know some) believe there's 'nothing' of them to continue on in the world. Some mothers have no children to survive after them, as you surely understand. They're still mothers.

The last two are just absurd. Sorry, but they are.

I don't know what your point is here, but if you are just feeling sad and lonely, post about that. Don't post having a go at people without thinking it through.

[WillieWaggledagger]

Reading back my last sentence - mumsnet wouldn't exist if that were the case

[aermingers]

I also had children late in life after fertility issues.

And I'm with you on the 'you don't understand because you don't have children' type of nasty remark. Or the kind of remark which assumes that you have less sentiment, understanding, compassion or knowledge of life because you don't have children. Or that you are less complete or important as a person if you don't have children. All of these are hurtful, wrong and unkind.

But you are very wrong and inconsiderate about things such as taking time off work and needing to care for children. Unless your parents are infirm or sick then yes it is more important that they were with their children. You are not legally obliged to ensure that your parents are appropriately cared for and supervised at all times under threat of having them taken away or being jailed yourself.

Even when I was right in the middle of gruelling and devastingly awful fertility treatment, never knowing if I would have my own children, I had the ability to have compassion for others in that situation and seen that it was fair.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Cross post.

grendels, you might be right. You are reminding me to be a nicer person.

I think my issue is, though ... I think anything dying is sad. Of course if a loved pet dies you feel awful. I can totally believe that is much worse if for you, they are the centre of your world. But that doesn't force people to say 'my pet died so I know how you feel'. So I do think it is different.

In all honesty, it can be the same with anything. Sometimes, you just do not want someone to claim they know your feelings when to you, what you've lost was not generic.

[aermingers]

And incidentally I think someone who has kids but thinks of their dogs as the centre of their universe might end up with kids with a few 'issues' of their own.

[mercibucket]

i really dont think losing a pet is remotely comparable for 99.99999 percent of the population. i particularly hate this comparison to losing a child and i have heard it several timed. makes me feel sick to my stomach

thing is, all parents were once childless, so if they say it, presumably it is true for how they used to feel

[kicksandgiggles]

Sorry, but I agree with Dukk. I don't understand why people who have consciously decided not to have children choose to spend their time on a parenting forum ('By parents, for parents') - and then complain about parents who feel that those without children can't relate to their specific situations.

If you haven't had kids yourself, there are certain things that you just cannot understand, and it is presumptive to assume otherwise. I would never to presume to understand what it is like to defeat a life-threatening illness, or to struggle with infertility, or many other situations that I haven't experienced, so really don't understand the hostility from those who haven't experienced what it is like to grow a child inside of you, give birth to it, raise it, and love it unconditionally.

So yes, I think YAB a little U.

[mercibucket]

sorry my post is not clear
my second para refers to the people in the ops first post, not the ones who sympathise on someones bereavement with the story of the day their goldfish died

[Olivegirl]

The only time I would say that childless people don't understand
Is if they were trying to tell me what to do or how to parent my dc

Then and only then do I find it becomes annoying

And yes I have come across this quite often and so has dh.
Dh works with a lot of women and has had some of the ones with no dc try telling him that if they had kids they wouldn't do this and wouldn't do that!!
Good job he takes no notice and just smiles...

[MissDuke]

My sister is intentionally childless and in the past was definitely treated unfairly by her employer, expected to get the least priority when booking time off, especially at Christmas. It makes me very cross.

I would think she doesn't understand what it is really like to have children, but I would never feel the need to actually say it - what a strange thing to say to people! I had my children young, so I don't feel I know what it is like to not have children, or to be single as I met hubby when I was still at school. However I cannot say it is something I often think about or converse with anyone about. Anyway, to the op - YANBU in my opinion! I agree that having children does not make you superior or 'more worthy'!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Really?

Ok.

Some people haven't consciously decided not to have children.

Some people (not me, before you wonder if I have an axe to grind) had children who then passed away.

Most people wonder why this is so difficult to grasp for the few who ask about it.

[JohnFarleysRuskin]

'You don't understand until you've had children' is a twatty insensitive thing to say but I don't think it's evidence that societies attitude to women without children is unfair.

[justmyview]

YANBU. My friend's partner is a lot older than her. They don't have children together. He had adult children from his previous marriage.

I know my friend gets fed up of people asking how she feels about not having children, whether she feels that she missed out, does she regret it. She notes that people wouldn't generally ask someone if they regretted that they did have children and outsiders have no idea whether she's childless through choice or necessity

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

Dukketeater I'm confused by the posters on here that don't have kids....

my answer: I hoped to be a parent, recently I had a miscarriage, I hope to be a parent.

I am on this thread because I do think childless women often get a raw deal.

[zeezeek]

LRDtheFeministDragon - I can assure you that I am neither sad, nor lonely. I am, due to work circumstances, living somewhere on my own with my DH and DC a long way away and yes, I am missing them (and my dogs) - but I'm pretty damn happy with my life, thank you very much.

My kids and my dogs are the centre of my universe....sorry if I did not make that clear.

I'm sure my kids will have a few issues. Neither my DH nor I are perfect and we both have the tendency to be selfish at times. However, they both know they are loved and adored by both of us.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Well, then you have no excuse, do you?

[zeezeek]

No excuse for what?!!

[justtoomessy]

well quite frankly I didn't really know what it is like to have a child before I had one despite being surrounded by them so its not like they are saying anything untrue.

[kicksandgiggles]

To be clear, I perfectly understand people who were parents, are trying to be parents, are thinking about having kids, etc, who spend time on a parenting forum. What I don't understand are the people who have very consciously decided not to have children and seem bitter towards parents/children, and yet spend their time on MN complaining about things like squealing children in a supermarket.

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

there are may things you can say to people that are true that still make you a wanker for saying them.

something being true does not automatically mean its ok to say. unless you are a wanker

[WillieWaggledagger]

I don't presume to fully understand what any situation is like for a person who is living/has lived through it. Not just being a parent, but also being someone with fertility problems, or going through pregnancy, or lost a child, or a parent etc

But I would hope that any (sensitive, not twatty/attention seeking) attempt to empathise and comfort in any of these situations would not be dismissed because I have not experienced any of them. (I would never say I know how you feel, because I don't)

I have to say though I have never had someone say 'you don't understand because you don't have children'. So again, an experience I've not had, but I can imagine it would feel hurtful if something that is important to you is being dismissed through that phrase

[kicksandgiggles]

And FWIW, in my field it is often the single, childless women who get treated preferentially as they seem to be viewed as more serious professionals.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

zee, I posted upthread - I felt you were unfairly having a go without having thought it through.

I felt that if you were feeling down, it was understandable, but people would probably be better able to help you if you said what was wrong.

Now you say your life is fine, but you felt the need to have a go anyway ... well, isn't that a dig? Surely? Your OP is extremely chippy, claiming people on here are rude. I think you need a damn good excuse for that, and a better one for your subsequent posts.