Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

Grendelsmum..good point..

BUT it is also really important NOT to say "all Xs are selfish" but be able to apply a wee bit of discrimination and common sense, or empathy, to people's different living situations rather than coming out with blanket condemnation I feel.

My original post was saying everyone is just trying to live their lives as best they can. I am too. And trying not to be selfish as best I can, as I assume most people are.

[badidea]

I think it depends on your workplace more than anything else. I work in a smallish organisation (23 folk) and no-one has ever had a holiday request refused (i'm the only woman there with children under 18). As mine are both preschoolers we've deliberately avoided the school holiday period to avoid all those other kids...

With regard to xmas and new year, our work has always operated on a 'first come, first served' basis (which is fair to me, you're too slow putting in your request, you miss out).

On top of that, the first person at our work to request flexible working (reduced hours, wednesday and friday afternoons off) was a childless woman in her 50's....

I'm sure there are tonnes of selfish mothers out there who expect everything on a plate, just as there are tonnes of selfish women without kids who expect the same.

But you can't generalise and say this is the case up and down the country that childless women get screwed over holidays in every workplace, it depends on where you work.

As for fanjo even before kids if someone had a child with SN (or even without SN but had no childcare) and needed to be off in the school holidays, I wouldn't have minded, I had no dependents (children or adults) and there would have been no reason other than convenience for me (and only talking about me) to have that time off.

I don't see that as evidence of 'unfairness' to me as a childless woman.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

and WasteOfTime..who said I expect to be at front of queue all the time? I don't..it's tricky if I am not but we juggle and get by, like most people do.

[heisenberg999]

We had one woman say she couldnt do any shifts until 6 as her baby had got in to a routine during maternity and it would interupt his bathtime?! Everyone took the piss out of that especially as she only had 1 child. Some people just dont care about others.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

also grendels, i was just trying to explain why some people can't get childcare, not actually responding as if the comments were an attack on me IYSWIM? :)

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

heisenberg..yes that is indeed taking the proverbial :)

[badidea]

heisenberg - reminded me of a woman (childless I might add) that I used to work with, who was renowned for coming up with crap excuses for being late or not coming in. My alltime favourite was the monday she phoned in to say she couldn't come in that morning as she'd bought a new pair of shoes at the weekend and her feet were sore....

[PenelopeLane]

In my experience, the people that said these things before I had my 2 DC will now say things like "you won't understand until your kids are older", or "you won't understand until you have 3/4/5 " so I think you just can't win!

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

fanjo - because you said the reason I take holidays in school holidays is because I have no family childcare or other childcare

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

yes, i have to take them then.

Doesnt mean it's my god given right. Just means I am stuffed if I can't.

[badidea]

miaow are you seriously citing the daily mail as an example of how childless women get bad press??? I mean, is there any group, other than royalty, that don't get a bad rep from the daily mail?

I used to have to read the daily mail for my job (press scanning), but I'd certainly never read it for fun - maybe you should change paper...

[GhettoPrincess]

miaow the cat - I'm clapping and giving you a standing ovation. Thank you, at last, someone understands how the childfree are treated.

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

fanjo - but other people can be 'stuffed' for very different reasons.

[siblingrevelry]

I'm insulted by the remarks which insinuate that my children are just the result of sex without contraceptives, any idiot can do it etc..

I have wanted children all my life, planned my adult life around when I would have them, gave up smoking, drinking etc, wrecked my career to be a SAHM, and turned my life upside down.

So whilst I don't expect a medal or any recognition from society, I refuse to belittle how utterly amazing and life-changing having my children was and is. If that makes me a bore/uncool/anti-feminist then so be it.

[GhettoPrincess]

Fanjo - you are as unspeakable as I thought you were. St Fanjo the parent. I prostate myself at your feet as you believe is your god given right.

Ghetto..another woman is not better than another because she had unprotected sex.

She might be better if she was less rude and bitchy than her though.

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

siblin - but your sacrifices are not that important to other people. as they have their own lifes/problems/happiness.

[NotNewButNameChanged]

As a childfree man my experiences echo Miaow's pretty well. My now ex-partner was/is childfree and would say the same. She was always the one expected to work late, to work over Christmas because "well, everyone else in the team has a family".

I do hear what people say about this being a management issue rather than a parenting one, but it has come about in many cases because of entitled parents playing the parenting card and management afraid to be seen to be non-family friendly.

My favourite is "you don't know what it's like to be tired until you've had children". Tell that to doctors and nurses in the NHS who work ridiculous hours. Tell that to rescue workers in disaster-hit countries. Tell that to me who nursed someone with cancer.

I do think there needs to be more empathy on both sides but I can honestly say that the sense of entitlement and superiority I see or experience by parents has got worse and more noticeable in the last 10 years than the 10 before that. That is not to say there aren't fabulous non-entitled parents of course and I know many, just as there can be awful childfree and childless people.

[siblingrevelry]

Youaremyfavourite...

I don't care that it's unimportant to others-I am perfectly capable of spending entire evenings/weekends with childless folk having witty non-child related conversations. My kids are my world but not everyone else's.

But if you we're proud of something I wouldn't feel the need to belittle it even if it was something I didn't care for. I find pets the biggest drag on the planet, and have chosen not to have them, but when my mother in law waxes lyrical about her cats and how happy they are I don't then say "any idiot can get a cat, yours are nothing special, how boring", because to her they are important. To me, my children are important and I won't make apology for it or play it down.

[badidea]

notnew but the key thing is that it's not ALL parents and not ALL childfree adults, but that the world is populated with selfish bastards of all creeds who think they are the centre of the universe and no-one could possible understand their particular position.

This is not an attitude that only parents have. But the bottom line is children do get sick a lot, they do require someone to look after them, and if you want parents in the workplace then workplaces have to accommodate that, and it'd be nice if they could do so without people without dependents bitching about how selfish they are for daring to want to take time off in the holidays to look after their children (the cheek....)

What seems to be suggested here is going back to the days where women of a childrearing age or women were kids weren't employed at all

When my mother worked when I was a child, her employer refused to hire women with children as they took too much time off (due ot sick kids etc) my mother was the only parent working there with a child under 18.

I worked at a catering outlet when I first left uni and I was 22 (small business no written contract) and my boss sacked 2 women when they announced they were pregnant (found crappy reasons for it, they were'nt educated and were never going to fight it) as she didn't want the 'hassle' of dealing with pregnant employees and maternity etc (clearly she had 2 kids herself...)

I can see from the posts on here that not much has changed since then...

[Funnyfoot]

I think women get a raw deal in general.
Whether you have children or not.

However women who have children have been called 'breeder' and that the children were conceived by 'just having unprotected sex' on this thread. However I have yet to see a mother calling those who are childless spinsters or some other such derogatory term. Sometimes it is women that give other women a hard time for the choices they make.

[Pagwatch]

I have read threads where parents of large families say they are treated badly by society
I have read threads where parents of one child say they are treated badly by society
I have read threads where step parents say they are treated badly by society.

Also fat people, thin people, working mothers, stay at home mothers, poor people, rich people etc etc etc .

Good old mumsnet. What would we do without a vent.

[Pagwatch]

Yy badidea
The other thing in common is the daily mail hates all of them

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

However I have yet to see a mother calling those who are childless spinsters or some other such derogatory term.

they have been called bitter and bitchy

[tobiasfunke]

Apparently I was some sort of humanoid devoid of empathy and compassion before I had a child.

Now I have reproduced it turns out that's not enough to understand what it's really like to have children because I was only have one.

I was also a 'smug married' apparently- which I used to find the most annoying because noone could be married to my DH and be smug. Permanently annoyed, yes. Smug, no.

You can't win, there is always someone judging themselves to be better or worse off than you depending on their mood.