Unfairness to childless women

[zeezeek]

It does seem that on here at the moment, as well as in society in general, we seem to be completely unsympathetic towards and misunderstanding towards people who do not (for whatever reason) have children.

I spent most of my adult life without children - after having cancer treatment I assumed I was infertile, so it was a damn miracle when I got pregnant once, let alone twice.

I have lost count of the number of times that I was told that I did not understand because I did not have children; how I had to make allowances for parents because they needed to be with their children; how it was less important for me to see my teacher parents during school holidays than it was for a parent to spend time with their child.....you name the cliché, I heard it.

When my children were born I did not find the meaning of life. At the age of nearly 45 I still wonder if there is one.

Having children didn't suddenly make me appreciate things more - surviving a life threatening illness had already done that.

My dogs are still the centre of my (and my DDs) universe - although my DDs are there as well, even if my dogs are better behaved.

More than anything, I am not more worthy, more important than I was before I had children and I don't see why the world should revolve around me (or my children) just because I happened to have sex with my husband at the right time and get myself knocked up.

Rant over.

[shanghidawn]

It will be interesting in June when the right to request flexible working for everyone comes into play. Glad that this is being the case and that people can request flexible working. A fair and right change to allow work-life balance for all who are granted their request.

[heisenberg999]

Is that this june shanghi?

[shanghidawn]

Yes I believe its the end of June.

[heisenberg999]

Just looked it up no workplaces are going to agree to that. Argh headbang

[shanghidawn]

I think it makes it fair to allow everyone that balance if it works for their company.
If flexible working is not appropriate in a workplace then they have a valid reason to deny anyone their request. However the problem will come if one person is allowed it and then another requests and is denied because the other person has already taken the flexible hours and it can't be worked around for the benefit of both of them.

[GarlicAprilShowers]

Why not have more staff, working fewer hours? Or a longer working day with more flexible hours?

[shanghidawn]

I suppose it depends on the company, their needs and how it would work practically for them. Some can not accommodate this and others it works well for their company. And I suppose some people with stressful jobs would be tempted with a loss of income for a better work-life balance. Particularly if they are entitled to some or more working tax credits to support their change of income.

[heisenberg999]

I cant see many agreeing. They are allowed to deny for lots of reasons according to gov.uk.

[shanghidawn]

They can deny for lots of reasons just as they can do already. However if a workplace grants this readily for their parent employees then there is no reason to not grant it for non parents.

[heisenberg999]

I cant see many places allowing this for parents. Highly unlikely they will just find a way to fire you.

[shanghidawn]

It is already available for parents, the change being that now non parents will be entitled. People have a right to request flexible working however if there is a reason it will have a negative impact on the workplace or can not be accommodated then it can be denied and it often is at the moment.

[heisenberg999]

Yeah but no one ever says yes to it. Its a shame as I desperately want any excuse dh could drop a few hrs a week to look after our 2 week old so he could keep his job. There is nothing though its frustrating!

[shanghidawn]

Loads of places say yes...I have just taken over from someone who reduced her hours to look after her son. I know countless others who have successfully had their request granted, I think it just depends on the workplace and if someone can be employed to cover the hours or if continuity of staff is needed through the week. Your Dh can apply already as it is for parents and not just mothers at the moment. They can only say no...you can only benefit from requesting.

[heisenberg999]

They will say no they go crazy when he rings in sick to look after children and try everything to guilt trip dads not to take 2 weeks paternity. I have never known a job that would allow this for mothers. My old boss would just find a way to get rid as uncommited.

[GarlicAprilShowers]

This is why I'd like to see it legislated. It will change presentee cultures in a way that no amount of discussion can do.

[heisenberg999]

We both work in manual jobs the kind that being off your boss acts like the world has ended. In my old job if I or the manager went off the business couldnt even legally open as no one to replace us. I never ever go off sick with my children or otherwise, and I havent for years. Its not the done thing.

[shanghidawn]

Some jobs are like that...my old one was pretty similar and until recently so was this one. We were told 2 years ago that should anyone have anything that impacted upon their productivity then they would be on capability which would lead to dismissal within 6 weeks. I questioned if this applied to life changing events - death of children etc and was told "We have to draw the line somewhere and 6 weeks is adequate". Now I work under a new line manager and was recently told to book an appointment I had tried for weeks to get out of work time because, she said "If you need this appointment then go, I want you to get better." I think it takes a boss with a bit of morals and understanding about life.

[GarlicAprilShowers]

Makes you feel better about working there, doesn't it shang :)

[shanghidawn]

It really does!

[heisenberg999]

I dont usually mind im at a job now and taking all maternity appointments in my own time just to be helpful. However just really would prefer dh to keep his job.

[chrome100]

I'm childless and have never once felt that I have been treated badly because of it. Holidays are very fair at work and no one has ever suggested (to my face at least!) that I might be bitter and bitchy.

In fact, my status as "childless" never even crosses my mind. If anything, I think it's the parents who are hard done by at work - they always have to rush off, never see things to completion, don't get to socialise and always seem tired and stressed.

[HelloBoys]

chrome just reading your message, I agree with you. There has not been as far as I've been aware any cases of me being treated badly at work because of me being childless.

And like you say no one has suggested (to my face!) that I'm bitter or bitchy either. I think it is maybe unspoken if that but maybe I'm oversensitive on that!

It's true - the women who I know who have children at work always have to juggle time off (with older children its much easier) and though some socialise on the whole some do seem more tired and stressed.

Of course I know a few part time working mothers who also have au pairs (yes lucky them) but many mothers I know now, have given up work and are not working whilst children are under 5 - these women are in architecture/marketing too and they do take on the odd bit of work here and there but it's very much SAHM based.

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

chrome & helloboys - would you mind if I ask how old you are, the reason being I wonder if childless women are treated differently at different ages by society.

maybe its acceptable to be childless up to say mid thirties?

[HelloBoys]

YouAre - I'm 42.

But you know something, when I was younger, sometimes in a kindly way sometimes not so much - I'd be advised by other women (young and old and same age as me) that "You'll have kids one day", "You don't know what it's like to be a mother" etc - different from mother to mother.

To be honest most women I know (me included) thought we would have kids by a certain age, indeed when I was 30 and above I saw late 30s as running out of time to have children so it's acceptable but certainly seen by some as maybe missing the boat.

[Deathwatchbeetle]

Its funny when the issue of "you don't have kids so no one to look after you in your old age" ears its ugly head. Fine, yes true for me but just because you have had kids doesn't mean they will want to look after you in your old age. They may move to another country or just chuck you in a home or go non contact!