Able-bodied people should offer their seat on a crowded train to elderly people, yes?

[LOLisNOTaPunctuationMark]

Am i alone in thinking this? After today, i feel like i am.

I went for the train home at 4.10pm. Just like every other day, the platform was swarming with people waiting to board. So on we all rushed when the train arrived. As usual, i found myself at the back of the mob queue, so had to stand as all seats were taken. (There's really no queue etiquette. Someone who had been waiting for 20 minutes doesn't get to go before someone who's just arrived for example.

Anyway, my train home is massive. It takes me about 90 secs to walk from the first to the last carriage, and that's with me walking quickly.

I found myself an inch of a handrail to hold onto next to the doors. I was in the smallest carriage. There's 6 tables with 6 chairs to a table (3 at each side of it). All seats were full (except a middle one at a back table). There was approx 12 people standing next and around me next to the door space.

In other words, it was packed.

Behind me, an elderly man and woman squeezed onto the train. The woman was really tiny and frail. She was huffing and sighing at there not being a seat. I pointed out the empty one at the back, but the elderly man was already making his way towards it.

After about a minute, the train starts. The woman was very unbalanced and staggered into people several times. She said very loudly how unfriendly our country is and how much nicer it is in Dublin. Then the elderly man shouts down that we are friendly in this country, just not on trains.

At the next stop, another five people squished inside. The woman was getting pushed into another man sitting at one of the front tables. he kept tutting loudly and finally snapped and asked her to watch herself.

All the while, the people at the tables were just staring blankly ahead, or immersed in their phones, and two people were looking at her and grinning.

Eventually, a woman offered her her seat because she was getting off at the next stop anyway.

Apart from the elderly woman and man in that carriage, no one else was elderly. I'm aware that some people may have had disabilities, but statistically it's unlikely that everyone sitting down had a disability/disorder/pregnancy etc.

I've always been brought up to offer my seat to an elderly person if somewhere is crowded, and i'm bringing my 5yo daughter up to do the same. She has a disability which sometimes means she can't always give up her seat, but on the occasions she can, she does.

I'm just really saddened by it. The woman seemed very shocked as if she expected someone to offer her a seat, and kept shaking her head and sighing.

I'm dreading being old.

I think if the childs fare was free and they are small they should sit on your knee if somebody who has paid for a seat has to stand. I think this is common courtesy.
Nobody should have to give their seat up because there should be enough for everybody.
But as there isn't imo there should be a pecking order and people should respect this just like past societies did.

SaucyJack sums up the attitude of what has gone/is wrong in our society.

(was going to say more but have curtailed myself) (and of course there will be a come-back so I'll keep quiet)

PattyPuddy Why would a child give up a seat to an adult perfectly able to stand?? I think that's what SaucyJack was getting at?

I commuted to school on the London tube and NEVER in 7 years took up a seat. I do think that children aged 8 or above should give up their seats to adults. It's not about payment SaucyJack. It's about decency, respect and consideration - adults are likely to have been working all day and to be less able to stand than children who usually quite enjoy the balance challenge (I always did).

When newly pg I unusually took a "priority" seat (in those days they even included the words "for pregnant women" not sure if they do now) and a seemingly able bodied man (? in his 40's or 50's) stood over me and barked "Are you pregnant, young lady??" I was too embarrassed to say yes and simply gave him my seat, despite feeling rather nauseous and light headed.

Now I am older, I am more assertive and simply ask for a seat if/when I need it (not often) and have never met with anything other than complete politeness and an immediate offer of a seat. Maybe that is the answer - ask if you need to sit down. It's simpler all round.

I hope saucyjack that you would encourage your DC to stand if asked by a "stranger".

And as should be obvious to everyone who takes public transport, no one has paid for a seat. You have paid to travel. If the bus/train/tram companies intended to sell you a seat, things would look a lot different.

People on here are saying children should sit on knees and im merely pointing out its not always possible.

Still would like to know what a Teddington mum is, Patty.

^ PattyPuddy Wed 30-Oct-13 13:48:30

I too am like the posters upthread who are saddened by so many parents who allow their children travelling free to sit while adults stand. Those children turn in to people like Murasaki. Be warned.^

The other day I came home from Leeds. A bendy bus, but usually absolutely packed. I would have happily booted an able bodied adult (politely)off a seat for my ten year old, rather than have her thrown around the bus amongst people a foot or two taller than her. That's basic safety. My 12 year old I would have expected to stand, as I would have.

She's my youngest. My oldest two are adults. They give their seats up. Your logic does not stand. And only children who are five and under travel free. Who would have a four year old standing up on a packed bus? If you have more than one under five, you can't get them both/all on your lap.

It makes sense for some people to sit, for the safety of others if not for themselves. I wonder how many people would grumble if a bus had to be stopped because an elderly person or child was injured due to failing to 'hang on'. I realise this doesn't really apply to trains though.

VoiceofRaisin If someone asked me, or my child, for a seat, then I'd assume they need it more than me (or her). But no, I don't agree that all children over age 8 should automatically stand. Respect and consideration cuts both ways.

I hope saucyjack that you would encourage your DC to stand if asked by a "stranger"

No, of course not if the person was able-bodied. Why on Earth should one person decide they have the right to take another paying customers seat from them just because they fancy sitting down themselves? What exactly is "decent", "respectful" or "considerate" about that?

Just as I wouldn't dream of expecting a child or teenager to give up their seat for me (when I'm not pg with SPD) just because I'm the wrong side of 30.

Okay, now I see what PattyPuddy was getting at...

If someone asks you or your child for a seat, you don't judge their fitness to stand or ask for a doctor's note. You just stand up if you can do so. And honestly, I would expect an adult to the same for my DC, if she was ill or hurt or exhausted and needed to sit.

Sirzy I don't know what unseen medical conditions she may have or not have or whether she's had a shit day but my point is that just because we may be 'older' than another person occupying a seat we shouldn't feel entitled to make them vacate said seat because we just don't know their personal circumstances. The onus is always on yourself to make the journey as comfortable as possible not to solely rely on strangers for it. Because i'm mildly claustrophobic and have suffered panic attacks on the tube I don't like to squeeze onto packed carriages in rush hour so I often wait for an emptier tube. It's my problem to deal with not the rest of the train.

ive been taught to respect my elders so anyone older than me not necessarily senior citizens. but senior citizens are to be afforded the upmost respect especially the frail. now older i believe the same and my kids are taught the same. so old lady rude or not i would offer her my seat. but id offer it to anyone who seems like they need it more than me not turn a blind eye. thats one thing i hate about our society selfishness and sitting like zombies in a stupor in a cyber fantasy, much like here lol. seriously ppl ignored the lady according to the account, they cant all have been blind and deaf. why would u sit and smirk when a person regardless of age or rudeness is being squashed. i say society lacks human compassion, if its not me or my loved one who gives a toss. i certainly aint raising my kids like that.

Note to self: you know you're old when you're perfectly fine standing up but someone offers you their seat

Saucyjack I think you misunderstood. I was not expecting an able bodied young adult to ask for a seat (that is an unlikely scenario), but assume that if an adult asked for a seat (or if a child asked) then there would be a good reason for it and that they should indeed not be quizzed as to what it is, or asked for a doctor's note. At that point, it is the moment to give the benefit of the doubt and ask your healthy DC to stand up (obv it would be different if your DC needed to sit, but from what you said, they don't). Would you seriously support your DC saying "no" in such a case? If so, I am lost for words.

Out of interest, if there is only one seat, do you take it or do you let your DC sit there?

Of course they should, but you can't always assume that someone is able bodied by looking. I can no longer stand on buses without hurting myself - my hands aren't even strong enough to hold onto the poles. I only walk with a limp, some days, though. And it's not always the same limp from day to day. Someone with a heart condition or prone to blackouts would probably struggle to stand, too - though you'd probably not be able to tell by looking.

The only people younger than me on most of the buses I catch tend to be mothers with babies or toddlers. I wouldn't expect those to stand.

There's a single, high up seat, at the front of our local buses, that I can climb in and out of with a little effort. I usually take that one, because there's no way anyone more frail than I am would be able to use it and i don't need to attempt the painful shuffle across the seat to let someone sit next to me.

I did clearly state that I was talking about able-bodied people in my post Raisin so it isn't me who's misunderstood.

But no, I wouldn't make them give up their seats to anybody who asked just "because". As this thread sadly shows, there is still a generation around who do not afford children the same basic rights and respect that they demand themselves from strangers and so I wouldn't just assume someone had a good reason for asking.

Out of interest, if there is only one seat, do you take it or do you let your DC sit there?

I'd sit on it, and they'd perch on a knee each if necessary. But I'd no more do this with them than sit on my boyfriend's knee if there were seats free.

I don't do it just on age but more on frailty.
In this case I might have been inclined to offer her my seat until she started huffing and puffing in an entitled way and saying how unfriendly everyone in the whole country was. then I'd have just thought "sod you then you miserable grump, you may as well have something to be miserable about". If people offer you their seat they are doing you a favour.
Some young women with tiny unstable children and lots of shopping need a seat more than older ones. I don't have an age cut off.

But Saucyjack how would you tell if the person asking was able to stand easily or not? Many disabilities are invisible. Why would they ask if they were able to stand fine? I would be mortified to think I was making someone else struggle and would always give up my seat if asked (unless I absolutely needed it myself which is rare but eg once when recovering from a serious illness). In fact, I rarely sit in the first place on busy transport. Wouldn't it just be "nicer" to give up your seat if asked, giving the asker the benefit of the doubt of being a normal, decent person who asks only if they are in need (or for your DC to move across onto your knee as that is what you would do if there were only one seat in the first place)?

I agree with your point about children being just as entitled to respect/care/rights as adults are btw but I also think that it is your job as a mother to be teaching them about consideration for others. My mother is very, very old and she still leaps out of her seat for someone who looks in need (which is odd tbf as she needs it too!). It's not BECAUSE they are children that they should give up their seat but because, you have implied, they have no particular need to sit down so if somebody else does then that is the reasonable way to behave.

I'll give up my seat for anybody.

If I like the look of their face.

Have we all lost the ability to recognise the facial expressions/body posture of someone feeling pain/discomfort? I haven't, my DS, despite being a dreaded teen hasn't, and even if we all had I know it is hard to ask for help but surely the old adage of 'if you don't ask you don't get' would kick in?

Isn't common courtesy meant to be, erm, common?

Yes but it works both ways having respect and decency.Its not a one way street