to think that UK schools should try and follow the Japanese model a little more?

[FreckledLeopard]

So, according to the OECD, "England is the only country in the developed world where the generation approaching retirement is more literate and numerate than the youngest adults."

Guardian Link

Conversely, the Japanese are at the top of the table with the best literacy and numeracy skills of the OECD.

I volunteer in schools in 'deprived' boroughs as part of the Corporate Responsibility agenda at work. I see primary school (Yr 3) pupils who cannot read, write or count to ten using their fingers. Very few children know their times tables. I appreciate these are the most shocking examples, but it's certainly not uncommon for teenagers not to be able to recall times tables instantly, or to be able to do basic mental calculations. On the other hand, my 97 year old grandmother who died a few years ago could immediately give you the answer to any times table question posed, had immaculate spelling, handwriting and grammar, yet left school aged 14 in 1928.

I know that the argument is put forward that rote learning stifles creativity and critical thinking. Yet if a child cannot read, write or spell accurately, what use is critical thinking to them if they can't get any thoughts down on paper? Similarly, what is wrong with rote learning if it gives pupils a basic grasp of mathematics that will provide them with at least the basic ability to get through life (understanding budgets, shopping, simple percentages etc)?

Surely rote learning, frequent testing and an emphasis on knowing the basics well would serve pupils in good stead and not allow children to fall through the gaps as they currently do? So, AIBU to wish that British schools would try and emulate the Japanese/South Korean model a little more?

Hardly anyone uses semi-colons these days; young or old.

(Smirk).

Japanese people do write essays but they have a different way of writing them. I once read a really interesting article about it. I actually found it hard to do my Masters at a Japanese university as the approach was so different.

I'm not convinced that Japan does have 99% literacy rates. I taught a couple of kids in Japan who had dyslexia and couldn't write Chinese characters. I have met quite a few adults who cant read or write either. A lot of kids drop out of school early. A friend's son is severely disabled, he cannot speak let alone read or write. I don't know how it is tested but it seems to me more than 1% of the population has enough going on to affect their literacy rate.

I once read a statistic that North Korea has 100% literacy. I'm not convinced by that one either.

Thanks for the thoughtful & considered posts, SnowQu33n esp.

I'm not convinced the drop in literacy levels at FE and HE is necessarily a proof point that teaching in England is failing though.

I think it's partly that children who would never have considered FE are now expected to go to school and college. If we look at our grandparent's generations (which was the starting point of this thread) if you weren't literate or numerate you didn't go near a college, let alone a uni. I don't think we can possibly be comparing like for like here. My own DGM (who was very numerate) went in to service when she was 14. I am of course not saying that was a good thing, simply that the experiences and expectations of school leavers are now very different.

I also think there's a general shift in certain 'standards' for want of a better word. Toad's point about semi-colons is correct - no-one uses them. Does that mean no-one knows how to use them? Well, probably not quite yet. But if they aren't used on the internet, in modern literature, in newspapers, we will collectively forget both to use them and how to use them correctly. And we'll forget to teach them. Or children won't see the point of learning them.

Wilson

I understand that the survey covered a cross-section of 16-65 yos and 16-24 yos, across all groups. If so, the number who went on to FE ought to be irrelevant, or even in favour of the 16-24 yos.

In any event, mass literacy and numeracy is scarcely a recent thing for any of the countries on that list, except perhaps South Korea.

I think semi-colons have become rare for two reasons. First, shorter sentences are encouraged now. Semi-colons come into their own when writing 50-word sentences like the Victorians. Second, (long sentences aside) some other mark can be substituted for the sem-colon.

A while back I went hunting for a reference guide to English grammar. Very interesting. My parents' generation were suprised I wanted one, and recommended Fowler, which is a guide to usage rather than grammar. I did eventually find some, but they were all for American English - except for one. That one, which I bought, I've had to annotate heavily as its authors tried to avoid using traditional grammatical terms whenever possible, presumably because they are too "hard". As a result, it is extremely unwieldly to use.

well I have taught English to plenty of Japanese students - and getting a Japanese girl to speak out without her hand over her mouth and a paroxysm of embarrassed giggles is a job in itself. so I wouldn't be in a rush to emulate their system, whatever it is.

I find the lack of good English-English grammar guides a bit knobby. You're just supposed to know. I still weep over the Times style guide going behind their paywall, though Linguagroover on Twitter (their style guy) will answer direct tweets.

Someone who doesn't know their tables needn't necessarily have any issue with division, since the table are only an organizational method for representing number bonds, which can be learned in other ways

IMO the number of people who know number bonds but not their times tables would be vanishingly small. The best predictor IME of not knowing number bonds is not knowing tables, and vice versa. And without number bonds you can never progress from kindergarten maths.

I think innumeracy is a much bigger but less obvious/publicised problem than literacy in the UK. The number of kids who still don't know their number bonds by GCSE is scary, i shudder go think how they are going to achieve this Gove C for Maths thing.

Japan may not be the right model for the UK, but the current UK system isn't it either. And the problem is now that many rapidly developing countries have better education systems than the UK as well as cheaper labour costs. To compete globally as a high value knowledge economy you need well educated people, and the UK system isn't delivering it.

I don't think that's true, lazy. I know loads of people who don't know their tables, and we all seem capable of basic arithmetic.

My mum tutors maths and has done for about 15 years now, and she'd say the same.

I agree there is a scary issue with children who don't know very basic stuff by GCSE, but I'm not convinced knowing tables is any particularly useful predictor. After all, we only used to learn tables to 12 because we used currency that made this useful - there's nothing particularly bad about no knowing your 12 times table these days, except to unquestioning traditionalists like Gove who don't think about why they want schools to teach things.

no where on the list of countries does it shows the marks between each country- for all we know Japan could be 10 marks below finland and 30 marks above England, why don't they show the marks - or is there somewhere that the marks are available?

Its all very well saying 'copy Japan' - but the other country that consistently tops league tables is Finland. Yet from what I have read the educational systems in the two countries are probably as far apart as you could manage.

The most notable fact about the countries at the top of the league table is that they have very low levels of economic inequality.

The same, of course, was true of the British generation age 55-65 - they grew up in an era when inequality was at its lowest, there were ample employment opportunities (my Mum's description: if you didn't like your job, you just gave notice on Friday, and found a new job on Monday), and rationing / free milk etc had led to a much better diet for poorer people.

If my Mum were a 16 year old school leaver in Brixton with one O level today, I don't think she'd find any job, much less be able to move from one decent office job (bank clerk, junior office worker in ICI etc) to another without a second thought because she fancied a change.

Actually, looking at the Guardian article again, I wonder if we should really be investigating educational systems in Estonia - a relatively poor and relatively unequal country that still has good outcomes in both maths and literacy.

Off topic slightly .. An easy way to do your 9 x table on fingers..

Put both hands up in front of you palm facing you. If the sum is 6x9 put down the 6th finger (so the pinkie on your right hand in this eg). The number of fingers to the left of the down finger is your tens and the number of fingers on your right is the units. In this example 54. For 2x9 put down the second finger etc.

On topic .. My best friend is Japanese married to a Brit and they now live here in the UK and are in no rush to get back to japan to educate their boys there. She once described a typical school day over there. Long and very academic.

Oh, god ... we had to do that at school.

Sorry LRD. I am giving you classroom flashbacks aren't I?!

Thanks for that LRD - about the 12 times table. I always wondered why we stopped at 12, not 10 or somewhere else

Old money was 240 pence to the pound .... so knowing 12s was essential to work out shillings (12 pence)

12 inches to the foot as well.

but 13 shillings to the Guinea

Let us not forget chains, rods, poles and perches.
Or farthings and ha'pennies.

silver apples - how many perches in a an acre?

Are we talking lake or river?

'As a unit of area, a square perch (the perch being standardized to equal 16½ feet, or 5½ yards) is equal to a square rod, 30 1?4 square yards (25.29 square metres) or 0.00625 acres, or 1/160 acre.
There are 40 square perches to a rood (A rectangular area with edges of one furlong (10 chains i.e. 40 rods) and one rod respectively), and 160 square perches to an acre (an area one furlong by one chain (i.e. 4 rods)).

And today's youth find the decimal system complicated!

I was in primary school in the 70s and learnt my tables. can so them now. still utterly utterly crap at maths though.