to think that UK schools should try and follow the Japanese model a little more?

[FreckledLeopard]

So, according to the OECD, "England is the only country in the developed world where the generation approaching retirement is more literate and numerate than the youngest adults."

Guardian Link

Conversely, the Japanese are at the top of the table with the best literacy and numeracy skills of the OECD.

I volunteer in schools in 'deprived' boroughs as part of the Corporate Responsibility agenda at work. I see primary school (Yr 3) pupils who cannot read, write or count to ten using their fingers. Very few children know their times tables. I appreciate these are the most shocking examples, but it's certainly not uncommon for teenagers not to be able to recall times tables instantly, or to be able to do basic mental calculations. On the other hand, my 97 year old grandmother who died a few years ago could immediately give you the answer to any times table question posed, had immaculate spelling, handwriting and grammar, yet left school aged 14 in 1928.

I know that the argument is put forward that rote learning stifles creativity and critical thinking. Yet if a child cannot read, write or spell accurately, what use is critical thinking to them if they can't get any thoughts down on paper? Similarly, what is wrong with rote learning if it gives pupils a basic grasp of mathematics that will provide them with at least the basic ability to get through life (understanding budgets, shopping, simple percentages etc)?

Surely rote learning, frequent testing and an emphasis on knowing the basics well would serve pupils in good stead and not allow children to fall through the gaps as they currently do? So, AIBU to wish that British schools would try and emulate the Japanese/South Korean model a little more?

[friday16]

I worked for a Japanese company for twenty years. Japanese staff who were assigned over to the UK who moved their children over as well had to be pried out with crowbars, so keen were they on British education. These weren't exotic international schools, and this certainly wasn't the little Tokyo of Finchley. These were ordinary, provincial state primaries, that you would probably regard as a safe pair of hands if you couldn't get your kids into the better place down the road. Those that did secondary education here, again in pretty standard comps, apparently returned to Japan and waltzed through the next stage.

Obviously, people willing to take two or five year assignments in the UK don't reflect the totality of Japanese opinion, because that they are willing to make the trip shows them as more adventurous. But I never heard anyone suggest they regretted moving their kids from Japanese to English education, and plenty regretting the converse move at the end.

[Jinsei]

Jinsei I am really sad you think that young children cramming is superior to the British system whatever it's faults.

Where on earth have I said that? If you read my posts properly, you will find that I've said nothing of the sort. And yes, of course your sister is entitled to have her opinions, just as I am entitled to disagree.

As for the Japanese expats whose kids were educated in the UK and then sailed through university entrance exams in Japan, yes, I can well believe that the parents would want them educated in our system, not because it is inherently better (in my experience, few really believe this) but because they see it as an easier way in. Traditionally, "kikokushijo" (children returning from abroad) were seen as being at a disadvantage in university entrance exams, and the admission requirements are therefore significantly lower than for kids at ordinary Japanese schools, in order to give them a fair chance.

[swingonastar]

Your thread title says "UK schools should try and follow the Japanese model a little more"; but your OP says "England is the only country in the developed world...".

There is no 'UK education system'.

[Twiddlebum]

As a child I did kumon maths as I struggled at school (went to a small village primary where 1 teacher per entire school so learnt diddly squat!!) kumon relies on rote learning and I'm now 33 and one if the only people where I work (I'm a medical scientist) that is shit hot when it comes to maths and I KNOW its from what I learnt at kumon and not from school. I am currently pregnant with my first child and will be teaching him rote methods at home (on top of what he will get at school)

[ChippingInNeedsSleepAndCoffee]

Nope - I certainly would not want our schools to follow the Japanese model.

Learning your times tables does not make you 'good at maths' but it makes learning maths much easier.

I would be astounded if anyone could give one good reason why times tables shouldn't be learnt by rote (and I mean properly 2x2=4, 2x3=6 etc NOT 2,4,6,8

[snowqu33n]

I have worked in Japan for 6 years.
The good points about the school system is that for the 'average child' it is usually quite egalitarian and opportunities are available to all, certainly at elementary school level. Japanese kids are expected to cover a lot of material in a lot of subjects as well as learning 4 alphabets. One of the alphabets has thousands of characters, about 2,000 of which are needed in order to have a reasonable reading and writing ability in Japanese by secondary school stage. Kids are also expected to muck in together to clean the school, and manners are taught at school etc. etc. Everybody eats the same school lunch, served by the kids, at the same time, and clears up afterwards together. There is a lot of respect for teachers and for education generally. Teachers are regarded almost as an extra parent.
It should be remembered that the cultural context is a homogeneous society where there is an extremely low crime rate, no swear-words in the language, manners are extremely important, as is being hard-working and patient. The school system is intended to produce people who function well in this context.
However, kids need to pass exams to get into secondary schools, especially High School. They can choose one public and 2 private High Schools at 14/15 years old, and they only get one chance to take the exam. They can't appeal if they are sick or have a bad day. If you get into the right high school, you are on a path to success. If not, probably not. The ones that fall to the wayside scrabble to get into High Schools that accept 'failures'. Basically, at 15 the die is cast and from there the kids then have to prepare for exams to get into University. The police service, fire service, civil service, everything has its own exam to be passed in order to have a career. Mature students entering universities are almost unknown. People who retake exams the following year are known as 'ronin', masterless samurai.
Other bad points are that creativity and individuality can often be stifled. So much that if you are teaching English, and you ask someone to imagine a situation, they sometimes refuse to talk about something that isn't exactly true for them. For example, "What did you do yesterday? Try to think of a funny thing, like you went to the moon or something." will produce blank faces and awkward silences. Most Japanese have not been asked to write a creative story in elementary school.
There is a lot of bullying. Some people have mentioned ex-pat Japanese liking the systems in other countries. Well, most ex-pat kids go to "returners" schools when they go back to Japan because they will otherwise experience bullying. The parents wanted them to have an international experience and they accept the consequences. I have taught young returners before and they had both good and bad experiences in the US and UK.
Special needs - many special needs are not recognized, especially if they are not visible. Many special needs kids can stay in mainstream at least partly until the end of elementary school. Then they either go to special needs school, or at the parents behest proceed to Junior High and it is at this point that things like dyslexia and ASD problems become a real problem. If the child's behaviour disrupts the class, then parents are urged to move them to a special needs school. If the child merely doesn't achieve academically, they can be ignored. ASD children who stay in the mainstream are somewhat respected as they are seen as 'clever eccentrics'. Dyslexics can be labelled as lazy.
I would still prefer my kid to go to elementary school in Japan. You can always fill in the creative and individual element during family time. The falling birth rate is a good thing at the moment, class sizes have shrunk and there are good facilities.
Sorry for such a long post and apologies if I am cross-posting with others.

[chimchiminee]

Japanese expats in the UK do a considerable amount of work to make up for the 'shortfalls' in our education system, even though the DC will have access to easier kikokushijo exams when they go back home. Many of them attend cram schools like the one DH teaches at, which runs after school and at the weekend.

[Pennybubbly]

There is some spectacularly bad sterotyping and generalising on this thread...........even among people claiming to know Japan.

All of the following points are categorically not true:

If you don't go to juku/cram school, you won't get into a decent school
If you don't go to a decent school, you won't get anywhere in life
No Japanese kid can utter a sentence in English

And on and on....

[Toadinthehole]

The country that produced Studio Ghibli not creative?

[friday16]

The country that produced Studio Ghibli not creative?

The country that produced Peter Higgs and Andrew Wiles not numerate?

You can't argue anything from the ends of the spectrum.

[Lazyjaney]

Inability to do the times tables means you can't do division eerily either. These are basic building blocks in maths, inability to do these means it's very difficult to become proficient at maths.

[Lazyjaney]

Eerily = Easily

[friday16]

division eerily either

[BadLad]

Few school kids can say anything in English although they can analyse a jumbled up sentence and put the words in the right order rather well. It isn't their fault - it is the fault of the teaching methodology in the classroom.

[BadLad]

When I was a JET at a high school a girl came for some help with her private university exams. I tried to find some past papers for her to practice.
Her Japanese teacher told me this wouldn't be possible. The reason was that the jukus paid the University to restrict the availability of the past papers. So anybody wanting to practice them would have to go to juku.

[Pennybubbly]

........or in fact study by themselves and enter university that way as many many Japanese people that I know have done

[Pennybubbly]

How many kids can you stop on the streets in England, speak to in French and get a good answer.
Despite "many years" studying French.

Which is considerably easier to learn for English speakers than English is for Japanese speakers

[BadLad]

Good for you but that's not really the point is it? The point is universities selling their past papers to fee-charging cram schools for their mutual profit is a very bad thing., and one of the many bad things about the Japanese education system.

[friday16]

Which is considerably easier to learn for English speakers than English is for Japanese speakers

It is, but it's also considerably less useful. Cynically, there's no point in learning basic if you're English: the only place you can use is , while the people of learn English to communicate far more widely. If I learn French, it's useful in France; if someone French learns English, not only is it useful in the UK and America and Australia and on t'Internet (you may have heard of it), it's also now the common language all over Europe. Dutchman speaking to an Italian? English.

If someone whose first language is English decides to never learn a word of any foreign language, the number of situations when they will be worse off, no matter where in the world they travel, than investing years in the study of French is incredibly small. Random country X? What's more likely: you happening to have learnt X-ish, the Xes speaking a language you know better than they speak English, or the Xes having English as their second language?

We need to get the linguistic chip off our shoulder. English is the world language. It's far and away the most common second language. Speaking loudly and slowly does work. It's not fair, but it's true.

[Finola1step]

The school in which I teach has a small number of Japanese families. One mum has taken her 2 primary school children to live in Japan for a year to help them extend their Japanese language skills. A great idea. But she made it very clear it would be for 1 year only as there was no way her eldest would be starting secondary school in Japan. She said the pressure is far too much and the curriculum is very old fashioned. She will be back in the UK for secondary school. Tells me all I need to know.

[BadLad]

I don't know. I've never tried that. If I did I assume they would run away, thinking I was a paedophile.

I don't even know if languages are compulsory in the UK any more.

But when I was learning French the methodology was much more communicative than is the case in Japan.

And you didn't say it was just as bad in England. You specifically said it was not true that they couldn't say anything in English.

But I would say that your average A-level French student would indeed be better at French than Japanese students are at English at the end of High School.

[manicinsomniac]

this reminds me of a story I was told as a PGCE student about a schools inspector in the 1960s (I realise it may not be true but it makes the point anyway!)

The inspector was in a class where the children were reciting their tables in the traditional chant. He realised a little boy sat at the back near him was cheerfully chanting "da da di dah, da da di dah, da da di dah ..." He knelt down next to the child and asked him what he was doing. The reply came, "Sir, I know the tune but I haven't learnt the words yet."

Rote learning is all very well but doing it without understanding is meaningless.

I know very little about the Japanese education system but didn't they come near the bottom of that recent survey about respect for teaching as a profession whereas the UK came near-ish the top? That seems to indicate the confidence held in an education system.

I like the best of our education system a lot. It isn't always done well but I believe the potential is there.

[Jinsei]

There are plenty of Japanese people who speak excellent English. Yes, language teaching could be a bit more communicative in nature, but that's changing too. There is also plenty of creativity in Japan, if you're willing to look beyond the stereotypes.

I agree with Penny that there is a lot of stereotyping going on here.

[BadLad]

I agree that the lack of creativity is not true

I hope nobody will contradict my assertion that essay-writing techniques are not taught in schools here , certainly not state ones.

At the high school I worked at no test was ever longer than 50 minutes, and I never once saw an essay question. Suits me though - I give an evening class in it for local adults.

[Jinsei]

Do you mean in English, badlad? Japanese kids are certainly taught how to write "sakubun" in Japanese, which are essentially essays although the style is somewhat different.