to think that UK schools should try and follow the Japanese model a little more?

[FreckledLeopard]

So, according to the OECD, "England is the only country in the developed world where the generation approaching retirement is more literate and numerate than the youngest adults."

Guardian Link

Conversely, the Japanese are at the top of the table with the best literacy and numeracy skills of the OECD.

I volunteer in schools in 'deprived' boroughs as part of the Corporate Responsibility agenda at work. I see primary school (Yr 3) pupils who cannot read, write or count to ten using their fingers. Very few children know their times tables. I appreciate these are the most shocking examples, but it's certainly not uncommon for teenagers not to be able to recall times tables instantly, or to be able to do basic mental calculations. On the other hand, my 97 year old grandmother who died a few years ago could immediately give you the answer to any times table question posed, had immaculate spelling, handwriting and grammar, yet left school aged 14 in 1928.

I know that the argument is put forward that rote learning stifles creativity and critical thinking. Yet if a child cannot read, write or spell accurately, what use is critical thinking to them if they can't get any thoughts down on paper? Similarly, what is wrong with rote learning if it gives pupils a basic grasp of mathematics that will provide them with at least the basic ability to get through life (understanding budgets, shopping, simple percentages etc)?

Surely rote learning, frequent testing and an emphasis on knowing the basics well would serve pupils in good stead and not allow children to fall through the gaps as they currently do? So, AIBU to wish that British schools would try and emulate the Japanese/South Korean model a little more?

[cory]

What a strange idea to rank countries educationally according to whether the present generation of children is more or less literate than the previous generation in the same country!

Surely that would mean that the most impressive results would be achieved by countries who had high levels of illiteracy until very recently- even if their youngsters are not actually more literate than any other children.

Of course it is a wonderful achievement to raise the levels of literacy in a country over the course of a generation. But it doesn't necessarily mean that countries which have had high levels of literacy for generations are underachieving.

The Guardian article also mentioned that British youngsters are not actually illiterate and innumerate when compared directly to their peers in other countries- all this particular survey shows is that the previous generation of Brits (unlike older generations in other countries) was already literate and numerate.

[Toadinthehole]

What were Japanese levels of literacy like 50 years ago?

[BadLad]

I mean critical essays, along the lines of "Peter the Great was responsible for the modernisation of Russia. Discuss". Giving an introduction, balanced argument and conclusion. No adult graduate I have ever asked learned how to do that in a state school, and that includes DW who went to the best state high school in the area. It also applies to people coming to my evening class who are taking private university exams.

And when you say:

"There are plenty of Japanese people who speak excellent English."

Yes, there are. I have my doubts as to how many of them learned it at school, and not in a conversation school (big industry here) or in a study abroad program.

[CreatureRetorts]

Just read the article. Why are they banging on about Japan? What about Finland?

Also the politicians aren't very constructive - they just get their willies out and wave them about shouting "it's their fault" instead of saying yes, and we'll fix it by doing this. Fuckwits.

I will also add, I don't know my times tables by rote - I know most of them. My brain doesn't hold information in that way. I need visuals! However I was very good at maths - if I needed to know the answer to a multiplication or division question, I could do it in my head, I'd just be a bit slower. I'm also an accountant.

[Pennybubbly]

I can't say much admittedly about essay writing skills of the Japanese, but on a scale of daily life needs, they're not particularly high on my list

[Pennybubbly]

'T'internet - you may have heard of it' - Why the sarcasm, friday?

[Pennybubbly]

Why good for me, Badlad? Cause I know some people who got into uni without cram schools?
My point was not woo-hop, look at me. My point was to say your generalisations are inaccurate

[saintlyjimjams]

Gosh I'm not saying that no-one in Japan can utter a word of English, I am saying that the teaching of MFL's in schools was not one that I would see as something to be copied. This wasn't necessarily the fault of schools- they had to teach to university entrance tests of course, which were grammar based quizes. Having said that the Japanese govt did of course recognise this and that's WHY they introduced JET. I was there in the early years when JET lessons were not particularly seen as 'real' lessons, (although they certainly emphasised communication) but that may have changed, and maybe that part of the curriculum is more integrated now.

In terms of good (academic?) schools=good jobs hm not sure. I think this is something Japan did well. At my agricultural school very few of the kids went onto college/university. Most went straight from school to work. I remember asking one group of 18 year olds what they were planning to do - and 6 months before they left they all had jobs lined up, as bus drivers, tour guides, sushi chefs etc. I thought that was a real positive of the system - but partly stemmed from the (then at least) lower rates of unemployment versus the UK. The agricultural school churning out chefs and tour guides was highly respected though & people were very keen to get their kids in there from all over the county, so it may have been a state peculiar to that school.

[BadLad]

It would have been a generalisation if I had said that all universities did about.

I said only that particular university did. I didn't investigate the scale of the problem any further. I would be amazed if it was only that one private university however.

You might not see any benefits of essay writing. But personally I think it is important. I wouldn't want an education system which did teach it to change in favour of one that didn't.

And I disagree that any of my comments are inaccurate. They might not be universally true. But they are largely true.

[Toadinthehole]

The old-fashioned-versus-new-fangled-teaching-methods debate is a total red herring.

In the blue corner we have Finland, assiduous follower of new-fangled methods, and apparently with a very high-performing education system. In the red corner, we have Japan; a latter-day version of Dotheboys Hall, except that it is also high-achieving.

Now, I left England 12 years ago but I suspect these are the real issues, and would be interested to know people's reaction to them.

1. Social class expectation: at my school, the working-class children didn't expect to do well; didn't see that as their role. I gather that is still around to an extent.

1. Bureaucracy: instead of teaching by teachers, we have teaching by civil servants by proxy, resulting in a sea of paperwork.

[BadLad]

"Gosh I'm not saying that no-one in Japan can utter a word of English, I am saying that the teaching of MFL's in schools was not one that I would see as something to be copied. This wasn't necessarily the fault of schools- they had to teach to university entrance tests of course, which were grammar based quizes. Having said that the Japanese govt did of course recognise this and that's WHY they introduced JET. I was there in the early years when JET lessons were not particularly seen as 'real' lessons, (although they certainly emphasised communication) but that may have changed, and maybe that part of the curriculum is more integrated now. "

Sadly it ISN'T more communicative now. My sister in law is a high school pe teacher. She tells me that what was once Oral Communication class, taught by foreign teachers and Japanese teachers is now Communication Eigo, taught by Japanese teachers only. I looked at one of the tests she brought back for me and it's the same as the regular English tests - put the words in the jumbled sentences in the right order, answer comprehension questions about a reading passage. Much like Latin exams in the UK used to be. This is the first year of Communication Eigo, at her school anyway.

[TheWomanTheyCallJayne]

Sorry going back
Out of interest in the case of the girl who learned by rote and then know that 9x9 is bigger than 3x3 in what way would she be taught that by non rote methods?
Cannot both methods be used. Like an earlier poster I wasn't taught by rote but know some of my tables and am quick at working out 7x6 is 6x6+6 because I know 6x6 for some reason. I'm can, at times, be so quick people don't realise I don't know them off the top of my head. I would still prefer to just recall 7x6=42 though as it gives me more time for the other stuff. If I am then taught by rote as well as being taught the rest to a decent standard I can still know that 7x6 is larger than 4x5. I'm not sure why ones stops the other apart from through lack of teaching.

[BadLad]

"1. Social class expectation: at my school, the working-class children didn't expect to do well; didn't see that as their role. I gather that is still around to an extent."

Well children with low expectations and no intention of going to high school would be better off in Japan, if they are going to high schools. Because they get the same certificate as the best student in their year

[PeppiNephrine]

you think its strange to note that despite longer school days, more years of education, more rigurous testing, higher teacher standards etc etc.....that LESS children finish school being able to read and add up properly?

What an odd position.

[saintlyjimjams]

Oh that's a shame BadLad - I rather hoped that what I saw happening in Japan at the time was the start of a change. I must admit my experience of the Japanese education system does somewhat chime with yours. I recognise a lot of what you are saying.

I did teach English with one teacher (the head on English in our school) who couldn't speak a word of English. Poor guy hated teaching with me. I remember all the grammar tests and word jumbling and fill in the blanks tests - often using very archaic English.

The other English teachers I worked with could speak English. A few could speak it very well indeed - & had spent loads of time abroad (I remember for example one English teacher on a night out telling me to 'chill out' when I was getting cross with some friends). The only chance they had to use that spoken English ability however was in our once-a-week-lessons or in English club (which a few students were on the whole forced to attend). I joined the brass band and the kids there used to like trying to speak English (especially slang) but I didn't teach most of them because I only taught the youngest year.

[Jinsei]

Actually, badlad, I'm not sure that British schools do a good job of teaching critical essay writing skills any more either - not if you listen to what university lecturers have to say on the subject anyway.

That said, I would agree that critical essay writing doesn't really feature in Japanese education, and I agree with your view that this is a valuable aspect of education that is largely missing in the Japanese system.

However, having managed both Japanese and Brirish teams in the workplace, it's not my impression that the Japanese teams were any less capable of critical or creative thinking than their British counterparts. On the contrary, I'd say that they probably did a slightly better job of problem solving in the workplace if I'm honest. I'm not wishing to make any generalisations on that, merely noting that the lack of critical writing practice in school didn't appear to have much impact on their analytical skills in the workplace.

[Jinsei]

Oh that's a shame BadLad - I rather hoped that what I saw happening in Japan at the time was the start of a change.

I think the change is yet to come. There is a lot of quite high level work going on in Japan to look at how English teaching could be made more communicative in the longer term, but there is recognition that this can't just be an add-on to what they currently do, there needs to be a conprehensive reworking of the curriculum. This will take time.

I'm not convinced that we do much better with regard to language teaching in the UK, despite focusing mainly on languages which are relatively easier for us to learn. I went to a school that was well known for its focus on language teaching, but I only really learnt to speak French/German properly when I spent time on exchange visits to relevant countries.

Finally, I don't think the plethora of commercial English language schools in Japan is the answer either - lots of native speaker teachers without significant teaching qualifications or experience. I've seen people attend classes for years without making any real progress...

[TheRealHousewifeOfSomewhere]

It has all gone wrong somewhere though. I am at college with 17yo with 12GCSES grade A* to C yet they dont know how to use a dictionary, what semi colon is and when to use it, what words like excursion mean, what a verb or noun is etc.

There is a reason why colleges noe have to offer basic lteracy and numeracy classes as integral parts of FE courses. Stuff that should have been covered at school justhas not been for whatever reason.

My tutor says in 35 of years of teacher at the same college the basic numeracy and literacy skills have plummeted. 20 years ago - hardly any school leavers needed additional help with the basics and yet lower and fewer qualifications were needed to get on the courses. This is not including students classed to have/need extra educational needs.

[Jinsei]

comprehensive

[TheRealHousewifeOfSomewhere]

apologies for the typos - my keyboard is sticking.

[Jinsei]

There is a reason why colleges noe have to offer basic lteracy and numeracy classes as integral parts of FE courses. Stuff that should have been covered at school justhas not been for whatever reason.

Yes indeed, and not just in FE but in HE too!

[saintlyjimjams]

I must admit I was pleased when my (year 7) 11 year old came home with a proper history essay to write this weekend.

I did a bit of A level biology retake teaching and some of the 19 year olds on that course had no idea at all how to string an essay together. It was a bit late to teach that on a two term retake course.

[chimchiminee]

Some quite interesting stuff too, though.

Japan is so far away, so 'other', that it's very easy to fall into stereotyping.

We're going next week. So excited.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

thewoman - with the lass who struggled with 3x3, yes, you try both methods, but that's what I've been saying all through.

'Inability to do the times tables means you can't do division eerily either.'

It depends what you mean by 'inability' though. Someone who doesn't know their tables needn't necessarily have any issue with division, since the table are only an organizational method for representing number bonds, which can be learned in other ways. OTOH someone who is unable to perform the calculations will struggle with division. It is perfectly possible for someone to struggle to perform the calculations involved, and to be 'able' to recite their tables.

These are the problems that provide false positives (and false negatives) in an education system.

[Jinsei]

Japan is so far away, so 'other', that it's very easy to fall into stereotyping.

Yes, I agree with that, and I think the Japanese sometimes encourage and promote it by believing in some of the stereotypes themselves. I was frequently told that Japanese people weren't good at this or that, but it didn't necessarily chime with my experience.

Jealous of you going out there next week. We were there in March/April and I didn't want to leave!