to think that UK schools should try and follow the Japanese model a little more?

[FreckledLeopard]

So, according to the OECD, "England is the only country in the developed world where the generation approaching retirement is more literate and numerate than the youngest adults."

Guardian Link

Conversely, the Japanese are at the top of the table with the best literacy and numeracy skills of the OECD.

I volunteer in schools in 'deprived' boroughs as part of the Corporate Responsibility agenda at work. I see primary school (Yr 3) pupils who cannot read, write or count to ten using their fingers. Very few children know their times tables. I appreciate these are the most shocking examples, but it's certainly not uncommon for teenagers not to be able to recall times tables instantly, or to be able to do basic mental calculations. On the other hand, my 97 year old grandmother who died a few years ago could immediately give you the answer to any times table question posed, had immaculate spelling, handwriting and grammar, yet left school aged 14 in 1928.

I know that the argument is put forward that rote learning stifles creativity and critical thinking. Yet if a child cannot read, write or spell accurately, what use is critical thinking to them if they can't get any thoughts down on paper? Similarly, what is wrong with rote learning if it gives pupils a basic grasp of mathematics that will provide them with at least the basic ability to get through life (understanding budgets, shopping, simple percentages etc)?

Surely rote learning, frequent testing and an emphasis on knowing the basics well would serve pupils in good stead and not allow children to fall through the gaps as they currently do? So, AIBU to wish that British schools would try and emulate the Japanese/South Korean model a little more?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Funny you bring up that example - I have the same experience for a different language.

But yes, of course rote learning can be good - at its best, it's just a nice way of getting things fixed in memory. But I think we can do better for children than getting them to rote learn everything.

[DamnBamboo]

Jenai out of curiousity, how do you 'do' 7X6 or 8X9?

Do you count up in 6s or 9s using your fingers?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

This is probably not the ideal thread to admit I don't securely know my alphabet. I can chant it - ie., I have rote-learned it - but you give me a dictionary and ask me if P is before R, and I don't know.

So, I think these things can be bad predictors of practical use.

[CHJR]

I think the main aspect of Japanese schooling that we should copy is that they, like the Nordics, do not start formal schooling till age 6. They don't waste time trying to make four-year-olds do stuff they'd learn faster and with stress a couple of years later. (I think teaching a child to read at 4 is like toilet-training at 1: yes, you can do it, but they're not going to end up further ahead, and everyone's going to get a lot more stressed in the short term.) The other thing Japan and South Korea have in common with Sweden, Finland, and Norway is that they have far narrower differences in the class and income, and therefore opportunities, of their pupils.

[JenaiMorris]

It take bloody ages, Damn. 76 would be (75)+7. 8x9, (8*10)-8

[DamnBamboo]

*This is probably not the ideal thread to admit I don't securely know my alphabet. I can chant it - ie., I have rote-learned it - but you give me a dictionary and ask me if P is before R, and I don't know.

So, I think these things can be bad predictors of practical use

I don't get what you're saying! How else do you learn the alphabet? What other way is there that would make it more meaningful?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I can see those answers on a number line.

CHJR - it's not just Japan and the Nordic countries. We are very unusual in starting school so early. Russia doesn't; nor does Germany.

[babybythesea]

I'm with LRD.

I also think a similar example could be that you could learn a huge number of facts. Tested in an exam, it looks great. But what if you are then asked something you haven't had the chance to learn? Do you know how to access the information? How to work out if the answer you have is a good source or not? How to mesh together two bits of information from two different sources to get the complete answer you are looking for?

Which is also why I think moving slightly away from a coursework based method of assessment to a more heavily biased exam based method isn't necessarily a good thing. Yes there's more opportunity to cheat in coursework, but I think that's where the effort needs to put in to combat it. Let's face it, in the average workplace you are unlikely to know everything you will ever need to know from the outset. You will need research skills, which is what coursework tests.

I know nothing about the Japanese education system but I actually think staring at other systems is a bit of a red herring if you do it piece-meal. We actually need first to disentangle education from politics, so it is less about 'what happens in five years at the next election' and more about 'what happens when this five year old hits 18 - what do we need him to be able to do?'. We need to make some long-range decisions about what we want from school leavers, work out how to get there and
what we do with the children from their very first day in school and start implementing them from the bottom up.

And we need to stop this habit of saying "They need to teach it in school..." when discussing everything from cooking to social skills to banking skills to whatever the current concern is, and trying to add it in on top of everything that is there already. And then realising the timetable is too crowded and so deciding that getting the kids in younger and keeping them there longer (both hours in the day and the number of years) is the way forward.

Phew. Cathartic!

[DamnBamboo]

Ok Jen but that suggest you do know some times tables from memory i.e you know your 7*5 then (without having to add up 5 sevens) So you do know some times tables?

[JenaiMorris]

We didn't have number lines in my day, LRD - are they good?

[DamnBamboo]

And we need to stop this habit of saying "They need to teach it in school..." when discussing everything from cooking to social skills to banking skills to whatever the current concern is, and trying to add it in on top of everything that is there already

Agree that many things don't need to be taught in school although I think times tables is exempt from this argument

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Cross post. I keep doing that, sorry.

damn - well, most people (so far as I understand) know the letters of the alphabet in order. So, if you asked them to look up a letter in a dictionary, they would know where it was, right?

Chanting in order, obviously, does not necessarily teach that, though it may help most people to learn it.

That's why.

Same with times tables.

For some people, simply chanting '5 times 6 is thirty, six times six is thirty six' will be enough that, when faced with the question 'how many times does six go into 36', they will know the answer. But not everyone's mind works like this. It is perfectly possible to be good at remembering aural patterns, and therefore good at chanting tables, but really terrible at retrieving the information in any meaningful way - let alone understanding the underlying rules that govern that information.

[JenaiMorris]

I know my twos, fives and tens Damn. The easy ones

[Jinsei]

This is probably not the ideal thread to admit I don't securely know my alphabet. I can chant it - ie., I have rote-learned it - but you give me a dictionary and ask me if P is before R, and I don't know.

LRD, I'm exactly the same!!! It's so embarrassing, I have to recite it from A in my head every time. I remember being mortified when I discovered that some people just knew the order without having to do this.

Having said that, I still have to look down at my hands to know which direction is left and which is right

[DamnBamboo]

What on earth is a number line?

[DamnBamboo]

Chanting in order, obviously, does not necessarily teach that, though it may help most people to learn it.

You are joking right?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

jenai - dunno. I always visualised numbers as a line. My mum tells me this is now a teaching tool. She tutors children in maths, but I don't know more than that. It is simply how I see things.

Interestingly (well, I think it's interesting), my brother is a maths academic, and he told me recently that it is virtually unheard of for someone blind from birth to be a mathematician, because at the higher levels, it is a fundamentally visual discipline. People have tried to translate higher maths into braille and other formats, but apparently it really doesn't totally work. So I think number lines may be an attempt to recognise that, though I know some people really hate them.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I look at my hands for left and right too!

[Mumoftiffingirl]

No fucking way should British schools be more like Japan. A lot of kids spend evenings at crammers learning by rote. My sister has taught at them and they are crap. My eleven year old niece gets up at 6am to learn her characters with her dad before he goes to work. Is she better taught than my kids were at that age? Definitely not.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

damn - why would I be joking? I don't follow.

[DamnBamboo]

For your example that is?

It wouldn't occur to people that e comes after d?

[Jinsei]

I know nothing about the Japanese education system but I actually think staring at other systems is a bit of a red herring if you do it piece-meal. We actually need first to disentangle education from politics, so it is less about 'what happens in five years at the next election' and more about 'what happens when this five year old hits 18 - what do we need him to be able to do?'. We need to make some long-range decisions about what we want from school leavers, work out how to get there and what we do with the children from their very first day in school and start implementing them from the bottom up.

Yes indeed, well said!!

[DamnBamboo]

Sorry, posted too soon. Wasn't trying to be obtuse.

[Talkinpeace]

Japan has had economic stagnation for 20 years.
It has a below renewal birth rate
It has a declining population because they hardly allow immigration.
Women are not encouraged to have careers.
No thankyou, I prefer the UK system that allows dynamism and creativity.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

damn - no, exactly. Actually I guess 'd' and 'e' are slightly on the blurred line, because I think if you can chant, you usually know the nearby ones. But it'd be quite possible to be excellent at chanting the alphabet but not to know whether R can before or after L.

In the same way, I know of a child who can recite some of her tables, but what is scary is, she doesn't have a sense of whether nine times nine would be bigger than three times three. She would be able to work it out by saying, well, nine times nine is 81, and three times three is 9. But she has to do that step. She doesn't really understand.