to think that UK schools should try and follow the Japanese model a little more?

[FreckledLeopard]

So, according to the OECD, "England is the only country in the developed world where the generation approaching retirement is more literate and numerate than the youngest adults."

Guardian Link

Conversely, the Japanese are at the top of the table with the best literacy and numeracy skills of the OECD.

I volunteer in schools in 'deprived' boroughs as part of the Corporate Responsibility agenda at work. I see primary school (Yr 3) pupils who cannot read, write or count to ten using their fingers. Very few children know their times tables. I appreciate these are the most shocking examples, but it's certainly not uncommon for teenagers not to be able to recall times tables instantly, or to be able to do basic mental calculations. On the other hand, my 97 year old grandmother who died a few years ago could immediately give you the answer to any times table question posed, had immaculate spelling, handwriting and grammar, yet left school aged 14 in 1928.

I know that the argument is put forward that rote learning stifles creativity and critical thinking. Yet if a child cannot read, write or spell accurately, what use is critical thinking to them if they can't get any thoughts down on paper? Similarly, what is wrong with rote learning if it gives pupils a basic grasp of mathematics that will provide them with at least the basic ability to get through life (understanding budgets, shopping, simple percentages etc)?

Surely rote learning, frequent testing and an emphasis on knowing the basics well would serve pupils in good stead and not allow children to fall through the gaps as they currently do? So, AIBU to wish that British schools would try and emulate the Japanese/South Korean model a little more?

[SueDoku]

This is why I don't want our education system to become more like Japan's (Warning: distressing content) thediplomat.com/2013/01/16/searching-for-answers-japans-suicide-epidemic/

[5madthings]

Actually Japan has one if the highest rates of teen suicide and it is thought part of this is down to the immense pressure they feel to do 'well' at school and in life etc.

[Jinsei]

I think Japan also has a very high suicide rate. It doesn't have an ideal culture to emulate, IMO.

Actually, I think there is quite a lot to emulate, though I wouldn't want to replicate their education system over here. I think it's far too simplistic to suggest that the Japanese can't think critically, or that they're a nation of followers not leaders. This isn't borne out by the facts.

And while the UK has had many more, there has certainly been more than one Japanese Nobel prize winner.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Thanks jinsei, and others, really useful to have some info on the system.

[Habbibu]

Well, if you're looking at ratings on OECD plus Nobel winners, which is an interesting way to rate education, Scandinavia and the Netherlands look good.

[DamnBamboo]

I don't get the resistance to learning times tables by rote.

You explain the basic principles as to what times tables are and then you get children to recite them.

So for example, 'Imagine in a supermarket you buy 7 packets of 6 cakes, how many would you have?' etc.....

You explain it - and then you learn them by rote.

How else would you learn them and what is wrong with rote learning in this scenario?

[JenaiMorris]

MrsKoala and Freckled - I'm 40-ish and absolutely did times tables. All the fecking time.

I'm shit at them! DS (13) finds my arithmetical inability hilarious

Thankfully I only needed GCSE grade C to do computing at college (having collected a degree in a completely different subject years before). It transpires that I'm a rather good programmer. Not as good as I might have been had my mental arithmetic been better maybe, but way better than some others who are apparently "good at maths".

[TEErickOrTEEreat]

I have never needed to recite the times tables in my life or career.

And I have a calculator on my phone.

Me and math are unmixy things.

[Jinsei]

zzzzz it's a bit much to form your impressions of a whole country on the basis of one documentary! Yes, the birthrate is relatively low, but I don't know what it would be here without the immigrant population.

It's not my impression that Japanese people find relationships any more or less difficult than the rest of us.

There is some awful stereotyping going on here.

[JenaiMorris]

Damn I cannot do it. I have a mental block when it comes to learning anything by rote.

Far better to do rather than recite, iykwim.

[Jinsei]

MrsKoala and Freckled - I'm 40-ish and absolutely did times tables. All the fecking time.

Me too. Tests every Friday, just like my dd now!

[Fakebook]

I sort of agree with you. I enrolled dd to do the Maths Kumon course when she was 4.5 years old because I was afraid of her hating maths like I did at school.
I've recently withdrawn her though because after 1.5 years she'd had enough and would cry every time she'd sit down to do the work.

The Kumon course involves doing the same question sheets over and over again until the child knows the answer just by looking at the question. You also time the child so by the end they should aim to finish a 10 page sheet within 10 minutes. dd (6 next month) was subtracting "10" away from larger numbers by the time she finished last month.

Tbh, it's helped her immensely. Even though she was crying in the last month (I always told her I'd withdraw her once she found it too much or boring), she is really confident in Maths and recently did extra maths homework of her own accord doing number bonds that add up to 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70, when she'd only been asked to do it for 20.

The reason why I don't agree with you whole heartedly is because 1.5 years of "parroting" the work got too much for her. It got boring, repetitive, and hard work. I can't imagine what children who are forced to learn work in school like this and have no option to opt out must feel.

Maybe a little bit of parroting isn't a bad thing, as long as the children remain happy and enjoy it.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

damn - I'm not resistant, but I think (like most things) it's not a substitute for understanding, and it can disadvantage people who aren't good at that particular kind of rote learning.

For many children, learning tables by rote is great - it gives them a solid foundation in number bonds, so they immediately know that 3 times 5 is 15, and so on.

For others, it doesn't quite work - in order to get to 9 times 8, they'd have to chant all the tables, and that's very slow.

And for others still, it is utterly confusing.

What times tables should be, is a nice shortcut to knowing number bonds, and a complement to understanding what multiplication is about. But it can't be a substitute for that understanding. If all the time in school is taken up with chanting tables (which is an extreme example, and unlikely in UK schools), then none of the time is taken up with teaching children to understand the actual process of multiplying.

Both things need to happen - learning the basics, and learning what they mean.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

We used to have to stand up and recite the timestables up to 12x in front of the whole class when I was in what would now be called yr4. I'm in my mid 40s. I still have to stop and think about them.

[JenaiMorris]

Ah, but can you do them now, Jin?

I'm probably better now than I was when I was 10, but only because I've learnt workarounds.

[wigglybeezer]

Not comparing like with like though are we, rote learning is a required skill in Japan because they have a character based language system which requires major repetition to learn) and they all still learn maths using a special abacus (which is a good method i feel but would require wholesale retraining of all teachers, not feasible.

I do agree however that there is not enough memorisation of times tables.

[Jinsei]

Ah, but can you do them now, Jin?

Mostly yes, but I struggle with 7s and 8s.

DH went to a village school in India, and was made to learn up to 20 x 20, with the threat of caning if he got one wrong! Not something I'd want to emulate here, but I'm envious of his instant recall now...

[DamnBamboo]

I see what you're saying LRD
But as I've said, if you explain the basic principles of times tables, then how does learning by rote preclude understanding?

Surely you just need to know what times tables are (i.e. the cake example, the number of boxes of eggs to give you 36 etc.) and that's it.

How does in this instance learning by rote stop a fundamental understanding as to what they are and why they're useful? I really don't get it.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

But then, you see the opposite side of it, jin. Your DH has instant recall.

But some children will learn by rote, and never understand what they are doing, and the rote learning will give, if you like, a false positive, making people think they understand more than they do. In the UK, my impression is that teachers are wise to this, because we don't have that much rote learning. But I think in educational systems where rote learning is hugely prized, it is very easy for children who lack understanding of the basics to surge ahead, and they're destined to become very demotivated when they hit a point when they need to understand things, and they can't make do on memorization.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Sorry, cross-posted.

I agree, I'm not saying rote learning does preclude understanding. It doesn't. It's often very helpful. But it needs to be treated with great care. If there is a lot of emphasis on rote learning, there is less time to explain things.

The worry is, if you have someone who can instantly provide a rote-learned answer to any question ('what is 7 x 6?' 'how many eights are there in 48?'), do you know that they understand what they're doing? Will they cope when you're multiplying bigger numbers?

The reason we only learn the first few times tables is because it's a trade-off: learning tables from 1-9 is fundamentally useful, because those number bonds come up a lot. We could learn tables into the thousands, but it becomes unrewarding. At some point, we have to transfer from learning number bonds, to learning how to work out the answers. If a child suddenly can't cope at all with multiplying 36 times 7, because he or she never understood what the rote-learned patterns are about, there is a problem.

I am not against rote learning, I just think it's very important it be treated with care.

[Jinsei]

Oh yes, LRD, I agree entirely that rote learning has its limitations, and being able to parrot successfully can mask enormous gaps in understanding.

I know this from my own experience. When I was at school, I learnt Russian, and was made to memorise all of the different word endings for the six different cases, for singular and plural, and for masculine/feminine and neuter nouns. I can still recite the 12 possible endings for each of many nouns perfectly, but for the first two years of learning the language, I didn't have a clue how to apply this knowledge - didn't get why there were so many endings, what they were for or when to use them. It was subsequently explained and it all started to make sense, but now I'm out of practice and could only chant the tables at you!

[DamnBamboo]

I see your point.

I don't think anybody would expect you to be able to apply times tables in terms of instant recall for larger number i.e. 7*36.

I just think that rote learning for certain things, as long as fundamental principles are taught, is a good thing.

It won't be good for some no, but then this is no different to the coursework versus exam scenario.

Teaching by rote to my knowledge (at least when I was at school) didn't preclude understanding what you were doing. It was just accepted as fact that some things are easier to make use of, it you can use instant recall.

[raisah]

The problem with the S.E & S. Asian model is that those students csn't cope with going off 'script'. They are so institutionalised in prescriptive learning that they are not able to adapt their learning style & think creatively. I work in an institution where the S/S.E. Asian students struggle with presentations & critical thinking skills but do very well in exams.

[DamnBamboo]

FWIW, I think schools could make greater use of rote learning. The number of older kids who don't know their times tables I find a bit shocking.