to think that UK schools should try and follow the Japanese model a little more?

[FreckledLeopard]

So, according to the OECD, "England is the only country in the developed world where the generation approaching retirement is more literate and numerate than the youngest adults."

Guardian Link

Conversely, the Japanese are at the top of the table with the best literacy and numeracy skills of the OECD.

I volunteer in schools in 'deprived' boroughs as part of the Corporate Responsibility agenda at work. I see primary school (Yr 3) pupils who cannot read, write or count to ten using their fingers. Very few children know their times tables. I appreciate these are the most shocking examples, but it's certainly not uncommon for teenagers not to be able to recall times tables instantly, or to be able to do basic mental calculations. On the other hand, my 97 year old grandmother who died a few years ago could immediately give you the answer to any times table question posed, had immaculate spelling, handwriting and grammar, yet left school aged 14 in 1928.

I know that the argument is put forward that rote learning stifles creativity and critical thinking. Yet if a child cannot read, write or spell accurately, what use is critical thinking to them if they can't get any thoughts down on paper? Similarly, what is wrong with rote learning if it gives pupils a basic grasp of mathematics that will provide them with at least the basic ability to get through life (understanding budgets, shopping, simple percentages etc)?

Surely rote learning, frequent testing and an emphasis on knowing the basics well would serve pupils in good stead and not allow children to fall through the gaps as they currently do? So, AIBU to wish that British schools would try and emulate the Japanese/South Korean model a little more?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

(And you weren't being obtuse at all, please don't apologise, I'm probably not explaining very well.)

[Jinsei]

My sister has taught at them and they are crap.

I'm sorry, but you can't dismiss an entire education system as crap just because your sister has taught in a few schools and happens to think so. There are aspects of the Japanese education that aren't what we'd want in the UK for sure, but equally, there is plenty in their system that we could learn from.

[DamnBamboo]

I am learning a lot reading this, I really am.

Interesting about the example of the child and times table you give. In that case, rote has clearly failed her.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Yes, it has. But because it was done badly, with too much of an assumption that if they just pushed rote learning all the time, she would get it. She didn't, and some children always won't.

That's why I think there must be a balance.

[Jinsei]

It was obvious to me what you meant, LRD, because I have the same problem. I'm pretty secure with the order of A-G, and with x,y,z, but if you asked me about the order of the ones in between, I'd have to recite it from the beginning.

Except I do know that m comes before n without having to think about it.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

It's strange, isn't it?

It's x, y, z and the ones before that I find difficult.

[MrsKoala]

Jenai i'm 36 and apparently the school i went to changed a year or 2 before i got there, much to my parents disgust. I have never felt disadvantaged from not knowing them and i recently retook my maths gcse and got a B. Which is probably just proof the system is dumbing down

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I think it is so fascinating, how our brains work in terms of memory.

I have read recently that there is a known phenomenon, where if we know something (say, the phonic code that lets us read, or the basic arithmetic rules that let us understand times tables), we actually cannot imagine what it's like not to know that. It's like the way that, if you are literate, you can't look at a writtten word and not read it. Your brain just automatically reads it, so you can't any longer think what it'd be like to be unable to see that correspondence between visual symbols and spoken words.

I think that must be what is happening here.

[Jinsei]

Yes, so frustrating to have to go through the whole alphabet just to find out that w comes before x! And yes, I did have to go through it all before writing this post, as I couldn't have told you it was w otherwise!!

[saintlyjimjams]

I don't think you've set foot in a Japanese school OP

I've taught in a few - like here they vary, from excellent to bloody awful.

They do a FAB line in vocational schools though. Really good.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Well, w is actually the latest letter to get a secure place in the alphabet, jin, so don't blame yourself. Until the seventeenth century, people weren't quite sure where to put it.

[NewNameforNewTerm]

OP your real name isn't Michael is it? (GOVE)

[LifeHuh]

Times tables are useful, but so are many things which children learn. I was educated in the 70s, rote learning was not in fashion then- I have good O levels including maths, science A levels, a science based degree and a professional qualification. I can't recite my tables, and 7s and 8s baffle me.
I realise that it is anecdotal, but really- it hasn't been a problem for me. There are things I really wish I had learnt at school, but times tables aren't one of them.

[chimchiminee]

I've name changed for this as otherwise I might as well start signing off posts under my real name.

My DH is Japanese. We live in London and he teaches mathematics at a 'cram' school aimed at the Japanese expat community. The kids come from a mix of local private and state, and a large Japanese-medium school. I have also lived in Japan and taught at several schools out there, so between us we have some pretty strong views on the system :o

Firstly, it's a vast oversimplification to say that we should import another country's educational system - and with Japan, I think extricating the cultural, social and moral education from the academic side is impossible.

At many schools the children are responsible for cleaning the entire building after lunch every day - toilets and all. Groups of students and teachers come in early to sweep the playground. Sports days include events like entire-class skipping, and piggy-back jumping all your class mates. Teachers spend 12 hours a day in school, and come in a the weekend to talk about the importance of respecting the toilets. Kids go to cram school until 10pm and then fall asleep in class. Primary-aged children walk in groups to school unsupervised by adults. And on and on - so many differences that I defy anyone to point at rote learning of timetables and say - there, that's the key difference.

For our own sons, DH and I are keen to cherry-pick positive aspects of both education systems and cultures to try to help them become confident, numerate, literate adults. Let's hope we choose the right bits... .

Interesting discussion.

[LessMissAbs]

Jinsei Japan is a much more egalitarian society than the UK, and there is not such a big issue with social mobility. This, in turn, probably has an impact on parental aspirations for their children and on the value that is placed on education

As is The Netherlands, which is very high scoring.

[Jinsei]

Interesting, LessMiss

Chimchim, I'm all in favour of cherry picking!

[chimchiminee]

No pun intended! :o

[BasicFish]

My DH is Japanese, I lived there for quite a while and would hate to send my kids to school there. The hours they have to put in are crazy - I used to see 8/9 year olds on the way to school on the train (on their own) at 7:30am. After school, they have activities. After activities, cram school until evening. I taught 3 yr olds who were coming to me after a full day at kindergarten. Middle school aged kids who could barely keep their eyes open as they were coming to an English class at 5pm after a full day at school.. I taught (online thankfully, or I would have smacked the mum!) an 8 yr old boy whose mum was screaming at him because he didn't know the answer to a question. She smacked him across the head when he dared to tell her he was too tired to concentrate . I stopped the lessons immediately. I saw a news story about a Japanese teacher suspended for hitting a pupil. My DH said he was often hit in sports classes, pushed by the teacher, ridiculed and shouted at, all intended to "motivate" the students. Awful stuff.

My dh was not very academically minded and he burned out at about 14 yrs old, spent the majority of time skiving and smoking. He doesn't have happy memories of his experience. I have no idea what's best for society as a whole, but I never want to see my own kids that tired, stressed, panicked about exams, I never want to push them to the point that they can't cope at that tiny age. I would like to think that if I were living there I would find a way to make it easier for them, but whether they'd be able to keep up with their classmates would be another matter.

Sorry A lot of vented stuff there! There are a lot of good things about Japanese society, but the school system and the pressure just seem unbearable.

[FreckledLeopard]

Start a thread, get distracted by guests and the Great British Bake Off and suddenly there are 94 posts!

So, no, I have never set foot in a Japanese school. I acknowledge that the culture and societal norms are wholly different from the UK. I take on board some points about creativity but am not convinced that there is no creative thinking in Japan - with the numbers of successful multinationals there they must be doing something right.

But, I'm still convinced that if there was an emphasis on rote learning in primary school, we wouldn't have the numbers of children struggling or falling through the gaps as we currently do. I believe children from deprived areas would stand a better chance at achieving. I also think, though cannot substantiate with any data right now, that 14 year old school leavers in Edwardian times would have been more numerate and literate than the equivalent 14 year old today (i.e. an 'average' 14 year old who isn't grammar school material).

Incidentally, isn't the Japanese suicide rate linked to the notion in Japanese society that it's an honorable and acceptable way out, rather than the Western concept that it's shameful or sinful?

[saintlyjimjams]

Ah yes, the kids falling asleep in class. In my school it was often the baseball boys falling asleep because they had to be at school by 6am to practice baseball and again after school (our school used to quite often win the competition for all the schools in Japan). I did see a student hit over the head with a heavy book when he fell asleep. In true British fashion I said 'you can't do that!!" to the very strict teacher, who just had done exactly that. "Why not?" he said.

I also taught in a (different) school where teachers were not allowed to discipline the kids. My god it was chaos. Not at all what I expected. Kids were playing cards in class, reading magazines, combing their hair. I took to doing word searches (they loved those) as they would shut up for a bit. My biggest success of a lesson with that school was animal noises (for 15 and 18 year olds, they put down their pens, they faced the front...)

My regular school was an agricultural school - behaviour standards were high, but being a vocational school there wasn't a huge emphasis on academics. It was a great place though.

Also taught in some fab special schools.

I loved Japan - but I don't think the education system would transfer here easily. Nor would you want it to. Foreign languages were taught as grammar puzzles rather than as a language for communication for example.

[Mumoftiffingirl]

Jinsei I am really sad you think that young children cramming is superior to the British system whatever it's faults. What precisely is superior? My sister has lived in Japan for nearly 30 years and is an academic author as well as a teacher and the parent of a girl in an ordinary Tokyo school. As someone who went through the British system and has two nieces at good London schools, I think she us entitled to give her opinion whether you like it or not.

[BadLad]

Worst idea ever

Japanese children have to go to cram school if they want to go to university or even a good high school. This is because their regular school lessons are inadequate.

The result of this is they are perpetually tired and therefore they are too exhausted when they turn up to school in the morning after a late night at cram school.

There are no grades as such. If you finish junior high school or high school with 100 percent in all your tests, you get the same certificate as someone who got Zero in his tests. Except the latter won't happen because schools just give you the marks you need to make their passing standard.

If you have ever heard your average Japanese school pupil try to say something in English you will not see the many years of studying English as a plus but as a complete waste of time. No other languages are available.
Meanwhile they learn no essay writing skills - Japanese people who study, say, history at a foreign university are utterly unable to write an essay because their school tests are almost all multiple choice.

[enderwoman]

No way.

I grew up in Japan as a teen and my siblings and I went to International Schools which followed a European curriculum.

You can't compare Japanese and UK systems. The Japanese system can produce children confident with an abacus and recite times tables but the curriculum is very narrow and struggles to produce linguists and people able to think outside the box. They taught the whole class as a unit (rows) rather than in small groups differentiated like in the UK. I'm not education specialist but I suspect this leaves those at the top and bottom not achieving their potential. I have no idea how SN are dealt with in their educational system or maybe they have less SN because their society is more uniform?

I've got 3 kids in the UK state school system. They have/had times table, spelling and mental maths tests every week. Not a fan of spelling tests as I'm not convinced they help learning but I agree with times tables and mental maths tests. I like how my children learn lots of different ways to work out maths problems and encouraged to use the method that suits them best. Modern methods look complicated but how many adults really understand what they are writing when working out long division/multiplication or carrying when adding/subtracting? I bet most do it by rote/habit.
Reading and arithmetic is important and some of the illiteracy figures I've heard today are indeed shocking.

[Pennybubbly]

BadLad - Those are some pretty wide generalisations you're making there.

[PeppiNephrine]

I'm not sure the UK is in any position to give out about other countries education system. Have you seen your league tables? I highly doubt Japan has the number of functionally illiterate and innumerate school leavers that you do.....