AIBU to think leaving a 7 month baby to work ft is too young?

[LostMarbles99]

I have to go back to work but I really don't want to leave my baby.

Dc is only 7 months, it's too young isn't it?

Dh will do 2 days care, dm 1 day and childminder 2 days, but that's not time with me!

AIBU to think 7 months is too young to abandon baby?

Will he feel abandoned?

sorry countrymummy13 (although your name sounds as if I know the answer) are you actually saying that all mummies must stay with their babies in order to prevent mental health issues in older children? Whilst I agree James and Joyce Robertson made those horrid videos, that is hardly a way of predicting what the older child will feel. What happened to John?

For those who wanted direction to specific research -

In the 1990s 3 major studies were undertaken. One in the US by the National Institute of Child Health and Development. Two in the UK, one by the University of London and one by a group of independent childcare academics led by a lady called Penelope Leach.

These studies followed over 5,000 children over several years. (I think they are even on-going).

The first 2 studies were carried out by and funded by people who were strongly pro-day care.

What all 3 studies found was this -

1. The amount of time spent in nursery correlates with noticeable behavioural problems.

The US resesrch found children spending 30hrs or more in nursery (during a week) were nearly 300% more likely to be disobedient at school, defiant, cruel, physically abusive, explosive and unpredictable than those children attending 10hrs or less.

Penelope Leach found nursery toddlers to have higher levels of aggression than those at home or with a childminder. And more inclined to become withdrawn, compliant and sad.

1. The quality of care does not remove the potential for damage to those most at risk (ie children placed in to nursery care for 20+ hrs a week from very young and for many years).

1. Timing is crucial. The risk for an 18month old is the same as for a 4 month old. The risk reduces after the age of 2.

1. Damage is widespread. Although the damage found was moderate, it was widespread. The same results occurred regardless of racial, social or cultural background.

I could go on!

This is a very complex subject. What lots of parents don't realise is that babies are born with only their primal instincts. Their emotional education is literally hard-wired in to their brains through the release of hormones in response to social and emotional interactions.

Most of a child's hard-wiring is done bedore they are 3 - which is why this group is so emotional vunerable. The very unique bond between a baby and its parent is itself a constant exchange of hormonal responses. It is almoat possible to replicate that relationship.

farewell interesting books to read are Steve Biddulph's 'Raising Babies' and Sue Gerhardt's 'Why Love Matters'.

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0007221924/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?qid=1376593546&sr=8-6&pi=AC_SX110_SY190

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1583918175/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1376593793&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX110_SY190

soverylucky the OP asked a question "is 7 months too young". Some people this it is. Just because I have offered an opinion different to yours doesn't mean "the whole thread as turned in to 'childcare is evil'"

There was an interesting meta study that came out in June showing no negative effects in children of working mothers in a large Millennium cohort - have been unable to find links to the original paper so far, but the booklet is here.

And of course this won't be definitive either, but there seems to be a shift in effect now that the real world is adjusting to mothers working - the research shows that there is a small but measurable negative effect in children born in the 70s, 80s and 90s but after 2000 the effect is no longer visible, nor is it statistically significant.

More research is always needed and wanted, but we can no longer take it for granted that working mothers will negatively effect their children by placing them in childcare.

'Widespread daycare for under 3s is a relatively modern phenomenon.'

No it's not, actually. Babies and children have been looked after in groups/tribes since the year dot. One only has to look at tribal cultures or arrangements such as kibbutzes to see that. I would say that a baby being confined to the company of only two or three adults for the first three years of its life is much more the modern phenomenon (which someone has already said on this thread).

I also struggle to see how stressed my son can be by being around the SAME children (no more than 8-10 of them at any one time) and the SAME 4-5 adults every single day. I'm sure the anti-nursery brigade have visions of a roomful of 30 abandoned babies with an hourly changing rota of strangers.

As a parent, what was most important to me was my own children and the specific childcare facilities in my locality. Neurological research, not so important, particularly when research projects have been carried out on small samples or in America or in some other cultural context which isn't relevant to me. However, like most people (I suspect) I think reliable and good quality research is useful in improving things (and that goes for any aspect of life, whether its health, education, car safety....) However, it's always wise to apply common sense to research, because in many aspects of life there are conflicting views. When there is cast iron evidence that a piece of research reaches a valid conclusion (such as the one example I cited earlier about putting babies to sleep on their backs) then obviously people are wise to follow the Advice. There is no such cast iron evidence about childcare. (And when I think of some of the educational initiatives over recent years which have followed on the back of research, I shudder!! It's always wise to take a balanced view)

I think genuine debate and discussion on these issues would be great. However, I'm afraid the underlying theme to many of these threads is that the mums who choose to use childcare seem to be quite comfortable with their choice, and don't claim that it is better, just an equal experience, there are a hardcore of mums who choose not to use childcare who don't seem to be able to accept that. It isn't enough for them to be content with the choice they've made: they want to believe that they know best for other people's children too. That's a shame because it thwarts discussion.

I was very happy with our choice of nursery and childminder. I don't think it was better than it would have been for my children to be at home with me (or DH) Neither do I think it was worse. I was just a different but equally good experience.

And it's the people who don't have a choice who really don't need this sort of pernicious undermining isn't it? Because at the end of the day, if you want to stay home but cannot afford it, or conversely if you want to work but cannot afford childcare, you are probably already feeling pretty shit about your situation and will be doing your utmost to make the best of it. Btw, for all those who are desperately concerned about young babies being in nursery: generally day nurseries are among the more expensive forms of childcare. Ours cost more than our childminder and we also had to pay full rate for 51 weeks a year, whereas our childminder was half pay retainer for holiday times. I'm just making that point to show that parents who use nurseries are likely to be able to afford a range of childcare options and will therefore have selected with great care. To be perfectly honest, the people I feel sorry for most tend to be those who need to work and have no option but to use unpaid relatives, even though they may not do things how the parent want. Now thats far more of a worry than parents who are making an informed choice.

theodorakisses do you want to have an intelligent conversation, or do you want to make ridiculous udgements based on my MN name? (btw, people in the country do use nurseries you know!)

What I am saying is that there is research that shows under 3s receive better emotional care when with their mothers than when in nursery.

And that there is research which shows emotional damage ocuuring during nursery years can cause MH issues later in life.

Obviously this won't be true for every child. The US study I mentioned above found 17% of children receiving 30+ hrs of nursery care to have behavioural issues. 6% of children who received 10+ or less. The results were the same across all 10 states studied.

I wouldn't say any parent 'should' do anything. The choice is their own.

I do think that as a society this issue has been buried and ignored since the explosion of day care in the 1970s.

For millennia children have been raised by those who love them and who they love back. Now we have a culture where a vast number of emotionally underdeveloped babies are being, in part, raised by paid staff.

Don't you think it would be wise, for the greater good of society, if we (or even better, the government) stopped to consider that maybe nursery environments are not the best place for our children? That other solutions need to be sought?

What kind of world are we going to be living in, in 30 years time if 17% of today's nursery babies turn in to violent, cruel, uncaring, disruptive and unpredictable adults? oh wait, aren't we already there?!

I really struggle to link others' perceptions of sending a child to nursery with DD's experiences. DD has perhaps been lucky, but the "paid staff" in both of the nurseries she has attended have adored her far beyond what their wage would demand and she in turn adores them too. She spends her nursery days with people with far more patience, time, experience and skill than I have in dealing with her age group, doing child-oriented and child-led activities. She doesn't look back at me when I drop her off to nursery, not because of emotional damage, but because she is so eager to see who is there and what is going on. She seems incredibly secure, she knows that DH and I adore her and will collect her and is delighted to see us when we do. As an only child she has far more opportunity to interact with other children while at nursery than I could provide with going to groups with her. She has learnt from other children and they enrich her world.

Everything janey said.

country Paid staff are not devoid of emotion and I think the many CMs and nursery nurses who have posted on this thread will confirm that. I know that anecdotes do not equal research, but I have seen nothing to indicate that my son does not adore his carers at nursery and that they do not love him back. As a nursery full-timer myself from weeks old, I'm strangely socially adept, unstressed, not a complete sociopath and I'm not cruel.

Please see janey's very pertinent point that your comments and highly selective examples of research are not helpful to those of us who had no choice but to go back to work full-time from the time our babies were tiny.

YY breatheslowly

... And I would reiterate the point that nursery care is among the most expensive form of childcare. Most parents who use it probably have a range of childcare options at their disposal. Not so, the struggling parents who need to work and end up relying on granny to mind the baby, even though she may be getting on a bit, has some old fashioned ideas about childcare and dishes out too many biscuits to keep baby happy. ...

Bloodyhell, that is the longest reply I have ever received.

pointythings that's really interesting. So maybe the research of the 90s really has changed childcare for the positive?

To be clear, I'm not saying it is an automatic that all children will be irreparable damaged by going to nursery! Simply that just as pointythings says childcare should no longer be assumed as a negative, it shouldn't also be assumed safe.

For the sake of our children (and our old age!) we should never stop asking 'is this right?'. IMHO

YABU. my 2 have flourished with our wonderful CM.

I got really cross by the title of this post as I felt you were judging all o is who have gone back to work full time .

I went to work full time when she was 4.5 months, she was fine and adjusted much better than my sons who were over a year.

Your baby will be fine.

Why do you think you are upsetting those of us who chose nursery for our children? As many of us have said , our children are now older ( teenagers in my case) and are very happy, well adjusted, emotionally in tune. As no doubt the children of most parents who didnt use nursery are. (You see, unlike some posters on here I'm really not trying to claim some sort of weird oneupmanship that "my children are happier than yours."

Honestly, what next? Is someone going to come back and tell me that my children are going to morph from well adjusted teenagers into anti social unemployable adults with mental health problems and a violent streak? Quite honestly, nothing would surprise me... Some posters on here are just dying to believe our children are damaged somehow. I just wish they had the honesty to admit that it's not out of some altruistic concern for other people's children. It's just nastiness because they don't want to accept that other people can do things differently and their children turn out fine.

Rubbish Janey.

Some of us want choices for parents,plenty of research and above all else children to come first.

Childcare is important and needs to be got right.Cost shouldn't be the priority quality should.Parents who want some time off in order to do it themselves need to be valued,supported and enabled.

I can't believe the amount of research,scrutinising and hot air that goes into breast feeding however how a child lives it most formative years is deemed as neither here nor there.

Countrymummy - you are right - we don't ever stop asking "is this right?" It was this that prompted me to move DD from her previous nursery as the setup of her previous nursery was no longer quite right for her. It never occurred to me to take her out completely at this point and I was lucky to have the flexibility in my work to rejig my hours to match those of her new nursery. Her new nursery commented that they rarely had a 2 year old settle in so well and quickly. That really was down to her positive experiences at her old nursery, where she had been from 6 months.

For many families - like ours - the "is this right?" question is not about home/away from home, but which CM/family/nursery or combination will suit our child.

Countrymummy I agree we don't ever start asking whether we are doing the right thing. Guilt is part of the package if you're a parent.

But I do think that we live in a changing world. Research is a powerful thing, and it does drive practice where there is a will. Good nurseries and good childminders are an example of this happening.

As more and more mothers go back to work, the drive to make that work (as it were) grows stronger. Working parents demand good childcare because being away from your children is a tough decision at the best of times. That's why there are really good nurseries around like the one my DDs went to - the nurseries that look at the 'don't cuddle children because people might think you're a paedophile' guidelines and go 'yeah, right'. And then carry right on cuddling children because that's what children need.

It's all about making sure progress happens. Not judging the choices we make is part of that progress.

Are you suggesting that some of us dont want children to come first retropear?

Like I said, good quality robust research has a place in improving life in all aspects - health, education, childcare... But frankly anyone who believes that all that initiatives that take place on the back of 'research' are valid must need their heads testing.

Wouldn't it be lovely if all the mums who choose not to use childcare could get their head around the fact that those of us who do use it, love and care for our children every little bit as much as they do. And that we make thoughtful decisions based on our children's needs. And that we constantly review those decisions. Wow. That really would be something wouldn't it?

Erm absolutely nobody has said wp do't love their kids so no need for the hysteria.

However many parents don't have a choice re putting their dc into childcare which is wrong,what childcare they can use (also wrong)or quality.

Discussing and correcting this should be a priority and not shied away from.It's a parenting forum and many parenting choices are scrutinised.

Yes, that's already been acknowledged retropear, and it's really important that for people who need to use childcare that's its as good as possible. But as I've already pointed out several times, nursery care is one of the more expensive forms of childcare, so actually those who use it are likely to have a choice.

I would have a lot more interest in the debate if it wasnt so glaringly obvious that the agenda of a minority on here to constantly criticise and make snide remarks about those of us who do have a choice and do choose to work and use childcare

No they don't have a choice if they'd rather be doing it themselves but get buggar all support,criticism and very few childminders/ nannies/ quality nurseries to choose from.