to consider speaking to social services, due to concerns for a friend and her DD?

[reallydontknowwhattodo]

I sound totally shit just from the title of this, I know. I don't feel good about even considering it, but I have genuine and serious concerns for the wellbeing of the one-year-old DD of a friend.

First of all, I want to make clear that I have tried everything I consider to be within my power to help this situation myself. I have spent God only knows how many hours trying to cajole my friend into getting help and changing things for her DD, but nothing works. Nothing ever changes for more than a day or so.

She, her DD, and her DD's father live in a house that is (to put it nicely) a great big shithole. The place is absolutely caked in dirt and animal waste, and is rarely, if at all, cleaned. I have tried in the past to clean it myself, but it needs a specialist in there and despite encouragement from several people to hire someone, they never have. This is not a money issue, they could afford to have a proper clean done.

Both mum and dad have terrible personal hygiene. They don't seem at all bothered by this, and my friend seemed to find it amusing that she had worn the same pair of jeans for four months without washing them. They reeked. The DD is always in dirty clothes, always smells bad and is left in dirty nappies way longer than she should be.

I'm afraid to say though, the above is the tip of the iceberg. The DD is rarely cuddled, her dad has very little to do with the care of her, so my friend is for all intents and purposes a single mum, and she has little patience with her DD. She snaps at her, swears at her, and will leave her crying for a long time. She has very irregular mealtimes, and is fed a poor diet. My friend regularly has outbursts relating to threatening suicide and although I don't believe she would ever actually do it, I worry about the mind of someone who would actually threaten this anyway.

I know the above sounds horrible and I feel awful and bad myself that I can't figure out how to help my friend without the assistance of SS, but I'm scared that if I don't, the LO will continue to live how she has for her first year. My friend does not see a HV, and there is no family who are suitable to help them (or in fact to approach about this), as they are either very far away or in the case of the paternal GPs, elderly and disabled (in a way that makes CC impossible).

So AIBU to actually approach SS now? I don't know what else to do.

to be frank i find the op putting her own emotional state above the child's. there was plenty of 'i am finding this very difficult' etc - well the op is an adult not relying on potentially incompetent/neglectful parents to meet her basic needs.

[rolls eyes]

sungirltan, you're not being fair to the posters on this thread, the vast majority of whom have said, immediately and emphatically, that SS need to be involved.

But I completely agree with your point about the NSPCC. I think people do think that if you call SS a squad of hairy-knuckled stormtroopers will be despatched to kick down the door and drag away your child in the middle of the night. You call, and they snatch: as simple as that. Whereas if you call NSPCC you will talk to somebody who understands the pressures modern families face, who will think about what kind of support this family needs, and will only act if really necessary and then impartially and sensitively.

It is very, very bizarre.

hester - yes thats a fair point and i read through 6 pages of mostly concerned, emphatic posters urging the call its true.

whats bothers me also is the misunderstanding of the structure/actions of ss/nspcc even though people always point out on these threads that the nspcc (valuable charity that they are) do not do front line child protection work. its like people posting about a medical emergency and people replying 'oh don't call an ambulance, call the red cross!'

I think the likely outcome of voicing concerns as serious as this to friend is that you are no longer friends, and are shut out completely. Or the friend will hide the abuse from you, and from others for fear of reprisals.

When things are this bad, to speak to a friend may actually make things worse for the child.

I have the same dilemma at the moment, but it's more about children living in filthy conditions. I know these kids are loved, and Mum can't cope, but I am torn here. I, like you, have tried to help, it's a hard situation, in your friends case, I'd say you have to ring SS. Best wishes

Suntangirl- never heard of that case and that poor girl before. Feel sick now. That's why I couldn't be a CP sw.

I completely agree about the ss v nspcc. It is seen as more acceptable for a referral to be made this way. When actually what the child needs is a ss referal before she is handed back to mum.

Sheshallhavemusic- you need to make that call too. Let the mum get the help she needs so she can cope.

The OP says in her OP that she has tried to help her friend by cleaning the house but that the situation is now beyond her. Hardly suggests that she has never tried the helpful approach, does it?

Obviously the poor mite must be afforded the dignity of her parents being referred to SSD. With support tehy may cope: i;ve worked in that field and we could often turn things around but only if we knew about the famillies before it was too late.

Environmental autism? Interesting. Well usually that label is attached to what is know as an environmetnal insult- ie. anything that triggers a genetic tendency that comes from teh 'real world'- from brain ijury to lead in petrol. ASD through neglect is mroe likely to be badly diagnosed attachment disorder, or as a result of the factors that I will mention below in a post that I C&P'd from another thread: I would love to see the evidence becuase Bettelheim's work though discreidted did actual harm to many parents and famillies of kids with ASD: ds1 was denied help at school becuase the Head said 'everyone knows autism is just abd aprenting'. I'd hate to think that people without solid evidence could bandy such stuff about and can only assume the summer hols have meant I have missed some wonderful new research that my Course Leaders neglected to pass on. If not I would be amazed as surely no actual SW would risk doing harm to maprents whoa re already likely to be depressed, struggling in their marriage, or self blaming by bandying about unproven pop-theories?

I spend a lot of time with people with ASD: I have 2 / 3 ( one beinga ssessed, also one with no signs whatsoever) and am studying for an MA in it.

There is no real single thing as autism- that's increasingly the belief anyway. Autism is an awful lot of conditions and causes that share a core set of symptoms. Given that we know it can be triggered by many things such as brain damage, related to other disorders (eg Retts and Down's Syndrome) as well as a result of encephalitis I don't understand why people don't just get that but there you go.

I have worked in a field related to social services, a charity, and I absolutely disagree with the SW: Even if she has seen that correlation it would only be in famillies accessing her services and even then she cannot ascribe causology- what she is terming neglect could be what it is assumed Bettelheim was seeing (he wasn't very well qualified to ascribe cause either)- exhausted parents who have ceased to cope or parents with the genetics themselves either undiagnosed or hovering around the spectrum boundaries.

I can absolutely say that I have yet to see any proper research shopwing this and I spend a LOT of time assessing research on ASD for uni; in my own family there is a clear history of ASD that goes back certainly to my Grandad. I have seen research saying that if scanning children could be afforded as routine (high res MRI scans being needed) then it is expected that damage to a few areas of the brain could be picked up in many cases; corpus callosum was one (also implicated in ADHD), I can't recall the other but I guess I could dig out the essay I did on this.

When people trot out this pop Psychology I wonder if they realise the ahrm that can be done: people accusing aprents, making lives ahrder, with no knwoledge of the facts or the individuals themselves.

Look this isn't a mum who has a bit of a dirty house because she is feeling depressed

This a child who isn't being fed properly, isn't being cuddled, is being left in dirty nappies and dirty clothes. BOTH parents are failing to meet her needs emotionally.

It is absolutely disgusting that anyone should suggest that action should not be taken immediately. I don't give a shit if this is a lifelong friend of the OP. It does not sound like someone who basically loves their child but is having a hard time - it sounds like quite deranged people capable of quite severe abuse.

And to post this in the AIBU section of mumsnet . The op is a regular poster, she presumably knows this is a section notorious for light hearted bitching and debates? Other avenues would have been more appropiate

I don't care one jot if I get flamed. This has been going on for a year. A year watching a child suffer. It baffles me that anyone could maintain a friendship under these circumstances anyway.

I have friends who have struggled with PND, one even didn't bond with her baby until she was six months. But she fed and washed that baby well and cuddled her and told her that she loved her. Because despite the depression she had empathy for her baby, knew what was the right thing to do by her. And the love and bond did come, she is now a healthy school girl with a doting mum.

Babies need human contact, they need to feel loved. It is a basic human right and if that is lacking and people won't step in, well I don't know what kind of a world we live in

To summarise, children with autism are at much higher risk of neglect.

I really do hope this has moved on today and phone calls have been made.

This is not "teling" on your friend or "reporting" your friend. This is another way of HELPING your friend.

SS do not every just walk in and remove children, it simply doesn't happen immediately.

Please do make phone calls instead of continuing to email - you worry that you won't come accross properly in a phone call - simply not true - in a phone call the authorities can hear who desperately worried etc you are, and can ask questions for clarification, things which simply cannot be done in an email.

Look if you want to OP you can message me the details and i will ring SS for you

I have contacted them once before about a little boy who i felt was being neglected , ss didnt remove the child , they did work with the mother and things improved dramatically for the child . I also have contact with ss at work , so am confident about talking to them . So please message me if you would like me to ring on your behalf .

Sorry for throwing this thread off a bit and I do agree something has to be done, OP.

To the posters arguing against email correspondence, I thought it was the case that it is better to do so because phone calls can be forgotten, letters go missing etc wrt all important matters and that email is the best way to communicate as a response must be generated?

I am confused as to why the OP is only emailing her concerns to the NSPCC - surely you need something a lot more immediate than that in these serious circs.

I have to say I agree with Scarlett - please PHONE them - imagine how much spam and general equiries, and donation info and marketing requests etc etc a generalt NSPCC mailbox....along with stuff from all voer the country....

PLEASE phone your local SS office.

I thought the NSPCC had an email address for concerns rather than a generic one.

When you phone NSPCC with concerns you will be put through to an advisor who will tell you to ring SS or offer to do it on your behalf. I would have thought the email service is the same no?

The way this thread has gone, I'm not certain I'm going to stick around it and keep commenting. Some people have clearly not read it properly, and wanted to bitch. But some people have been unbelievably supportive and they are why I will post this.

To make it clear, in an effort to steer some people towards what should've been clear anyway, I have not stood by for a year and watched blatant neglect and abuse going on. I would never have done that. I have seen things get worse and I have tried to stem the flow and it has now reached the point where I realise I can't do it anymore. The things I mentioned in the OP were what is going on now. I have never implied they have always been going on. In the course of trying to help my friend, I really genuinely thought I would be able to make things better and I could coax her round to being a good parent without her having to realise she hadn't done it on her own. Maybe that was truly naive of me to ever believe that could happen, I don't know, but once again, I never saw the things I am seeing now back when the DD was tiny. I hope I have now made that clear.

As was also made clear, I intended to follow up with a phone call, and that is what I did this morning. Suffice to say it was harrowing, but I am relieved for the sake of the DD that I have done it. I am awaiting further contact from them, though having never done this, I don't quite know how it works, so I don't know what further contact I can actually expect. Maybe there's a SW here who might be able to advise me?

Someone came out with some crap about me putting my own emotional state above the DD's wellbeing. Absolute horseshit, but then I think most of you realise that! Sungirltan (I think) came out with that, so hopefully she is now clued in. Also, that silly comment you made about is the child worth just an email, please try reading the thread before making daft faux-emotive sign-offs like that!

Two questions stuck out while I was reading the responses. The first was why did I post in AIBU? Simply because I didn't want woolly-headed responses and I knew the best way to do that was to post on the harshist board. This is it. I don't know whether the person who asked that was being genuinely curious as to why I chose this board, or being snippy and reaching, but there's the answer. I don't require being told which board this should be on, I know I chose the right one for the reasons I had.

The other question was how did this friendship come about, owing to our differences. We have known each other since education. It's been over ten years and we have stayed in contact through most of the ensuing decade and a bit. I thought I had written this already, but maybe I didn't. Anyway, that's how it happened.

Right, I hope that's cleared some things up.

Oh, and yes, I have confronted her and made it clear what I see is now going on. There is, therefore, a very good chance that she will know it is me who has reported her. I hope that makes it clear that I have certainly not put the friendship above the baby.

You don't need to explain any more. You must ACT NOW. This is clearly a case of abuse and neglect. This poor child is in danger.

You must call SS immediately and convey the gravity of this situation. Please. Just do it.

Wimminsinit, please read the thread.