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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be so upset by my friends choice of school

218 replies

honeyfool · 04/07/2011 14:08

I live in a largish village which is surrounded by lots of smaller more 'desirable villages'. Our local school has had a rough time lately. It has just recently come out of special measures which it had been placed in due to poor management. The teaching staff have almost entirely been replaced and with the backing of some of the community we are doing really well now APART from the fact that we are left with bad rep. Anyone who has every visited the school though, says how wonderfully friendly and welcoming it is and how happy and well looked after the children are. They are also making real academic progress. We are now out of SM with a really decent report. However, the 'aspirational' mothers still choose to send their kids to the over subscribed schools in the neighbouring villages. This reduces our funding and really erodes our community as a whole.

Anyway, long story short, one of my best friends has chosen to send her DD out of the community to a different school. I am just so upset that her values appear to be so different to mine that she would do this. I know it is down to parental choice, but I just cannot speak to her about this as I feel so strongly about it and I will say something I regret. Keep having mock conversations with her in my head. Grrrr. Want to stop thinking about it but it is making me so mad. She hasn't spoken to me about it at all.

Sorry - I know too long..... AMBU??

OP posts:
usualsuspect · 05/07/2011 19:59

Well you can't argue with stupid thats for sure

PreviouslyonLost · 05/07/2011 20:01

Honeyfool - from personal experience; 5 Primary schools, a mix of VERY rural and city locations, and 1 Inner City High School, I can say that my best experiences were in the small countryside primary schools. P1 - P7 (Scottish system) 7 kids (5-12 years of age) in ONE room, happy days .... and NONE of the schools were chosen for their academic or OFSTED results Wink. (Tho', we are talking about the late '70's/80's).

Present day- two DC, 4 and 3. LOCAL rural school, 50 yards away (I am SO planning to do the school run in my dressing gown on my days off Grin). P1 to P7 in two rooms .... under threat of closure for the past year (along with 25 other rural schools in this L.A) ..... only option is sending children to large combined 'Joint Campus' 5 miles away ... eh? Pop your 5 year old on a standard bus service, NO seatbelts, and with High School pupils loudly reporting their weekend drinking and sexual conquests 5 days a weekShock ... nooooo thank you. AND, when they get there, they are amongst a class of 25 other pupils. Our School has a TOTAL roll of less than 30! Local demographic a wide mix of backgrounds (from piss poor to uber posh), and privately owned and Housing Association accommodation.

Fortunately our school was 'saved' ...... but probably only a reprieve of a few years. As parents we don't give a flying monkey's chuff about 'results' or HMIE reports, local children should attend local schools - 'use it or lose it' principle applies.

A neighbour who lives in the house ATTACHED to the school building, chose to put her DD to another rural school - miles in the opposite direction but supposedly superior (NOT under threat of closure ... hey, go figure) - which only taught her DD to be a complete snob, and mangle her vowels Hmm.

This village has lost its shop, Post Office, and Village Hall in the last few years .... the school closing would cause this lovely place to become a commuter belt for the nearest large town: Pop. 3,000, and likely a retirement village like so many others in this large Local Authority.

IMO it is the upbringing of the child that matters in the long term .... a child that is taught to value education will benefit from any learning opportunities offered.

It's up to your friend at the end of the day where she places her child but I really do applaud you for not bowing to pressure and supporting your local school despite its past difficulties.

honeyfool · 05/07/2011 20:17

previously - I had shuffled away but had to amble back to say thank you and obviously ITA Grin
(and p.s. - although I am committed to respecting my friends wishes and not saying ANYTHING controversial to her face, I am reserving the right to call her a raging snob behind her back, just as I am sure she is calling me a raving left wing loonie behind mine - learning to live and let live :))

OP posts:
PreviouslyonLost · 05/07/2011 21:05

Honeyfool

I am reserving the right to call her a raging snob behind her back, just as I am sure she is calling me a raving left wing loonie behind mine LOVE it Grin

I am reminded of that Phillip Larkin poem ...

This Be The Verse

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

Education is just one of the infinite decisions we make on our DC's behalf ... and as Mr Larkin would advise, it probably matters not a jot Grin ... by the time the hormones kick in we're screwed anyway. (But for the record, local schools ROCK).

Enjoy your status as a 'raving left wing loonie', I'VE been called a LOT worse and still here to tell the tale, and revel in comparing school 'top trump' stories with your dear friend over the next few years ... you'll win some, you'll lose some, but it'll be all jolly good 'FAAAWWN' (well according to our neighbour's DD anyway Wink.

sparkle12mar08 · 05/07/2011 21:24

I know the school in my area. I've been to the school I've been talking about three times on offical visits/tours, and have waited in the playground to pick a friends children up on umpteen occasions over the past two years. I know this school. I know that the environment and parental attitude are not conducive to a challenging, high achieving education result. I don't know your local schools, I don't know your local areas. I have not commented on them at all. But I do know the area and school I have been talking about. I wish you could come and see and hear the things I've experienced. And then tell me that if you lived in my area that you would send your child to this particular school. You would not.

Fifis25StottieCakes · 05/07/2011 21:41

No i wouldnt but then i wouldnt say half the things you have said either in your posts. You seem to think that the kids from the 'sink' estate should be kept on the other side of the town away from your MC suburb. What would you do if the undesirables started sending their kids to your school to get a better education?

Have you ever thought the parents of the kids at the undesirable school didnt have much of an education either. It doesnt mean there kids are thick and dont deserve a half decent education.

Its no wonder people just stick with their failing school. I think all kids deserve a decent education, maybe their parents have just give up.

LynetteScavo · 05/07/2011 21:48

YABU. I chose to send my child out of "catchment" and will do so with my subsequent DC because I will do what is best for them, not for the local school which is under-subscribed. I really don't care if a load of very nice people and my best friend choose to send their children to the local school. It';s a very nice school for other people children. Thank heavens my friends don't care where I send my DC, and still speak to me.

sparkle12mar08 · 05/07/2011 21:51

Am banging my head against a brick wall! I would love it if those parents cared enough to send their children to better schools - as a few of them have done. But most of them don't appear to - and as I have stated again and again - I have heard these parents with my own ears time and time again. Some of them just don't care, they don't care. If they did the school wouldn't be as bad as it is, fgs!

spudulika · 05/07/2011 21:51

"No spud they don't think they will catch cleverness but they do think their will be better discipline, more challenging work, the school will attract better teachers and it has better results"

If the majority of easy to teach children congregate in a small number of schools then it WILL be harder for teachers to manage the ones that are left. But in well managed schools they do manage somehow. It would be better for those children in schools with a more challenging intake if the mix were levened with a more representative intake from across the social spectrum, but this won't happen if middle class parents insist on social segregation for their children.

"If labour had sorted the bloody schools this wouldn't be a issue and every school would be a good school"

Schools which get 'better results' than neighbouring schools in rougher areas, often achieve this not by having better teaching or better resources, but by having children who have more input at home. I went to a private school which had reasonable results, despite having BLOODY AWFUL teachers. Basically because it was full of kids with pushy parents.

Though I'm with you on criticising labour for their education policy. I despair at their encouragement of parental choice, as all it's generally resulted in is a polarisation of the school system, as parents like you (and others on this thread) all work the system to get their children into the most socially selective (which may appear on paper to be the most 'successful') schools.

It makes me sad that dd's school doesn't attract other middle-class children, despite having good teachers, good classroom management, and good leadership. What more can a school do to encourage a socially mixed intake? Ban poor kids from applying?

honeyfool · 05/07/2011 21:59

Hi Lynette and welcome to the party. We have already established that IABU Grin and I am now living and let living (si that a phrase?).
I am retaining a firm grip of the moral high ground but keeping that knowledge to myself. Thanks for your input though!

OP posts:
Fifis25StottieCakes · 05/07/2011 22:11

sparkle12mar08 Tue 05-Jul-11 18:20:36
Usualsuspect, flipthefrog - I live in a lovely leafy, mostly 'middle class', market town in the Beds/Herts/Bucks area. That school is the local sink school on the only sink estate, which thankfully is on the northern edge of town and not in the middle

With an attitude like this it is no wonder the parents stay where they are. I believe you dont want to go to the school and i believe there are parents who couldnt give a shit.

Theres parents like that at my school as well who live in 300k houses. I would get your friend to speak to someone if the adults are allowed to smoke in the yard.

honeyfool · 05/07/2011 22:18

previously big big Grin

OP posts:
PreviouslyonLost · 05/07/2011 22:25

Sparkle

FTR I am a Qualified Social Worker (Kick me nowGrin). A number of the children who attend the local school are' Looked After' by the Local Authority (and under the management of my colleagues). I am not asked to case manage these children due to the closeness of our home location - However, it matters not a jot to me that my children will attend a school where there are children who have experienced, in some cases, devastating early years trauma and abuse, nor that it may have a leaning towards a 'parental attitude(s) (that is) not conducive to a challenging, high achieving education result'.

I AM simply happy that our DC will attend a local school and receive the education that is provided for them ....I have friends who are teachers at the local High School, and to be honest their stories about staff room sneers attitudes towards the children from less than upper middle class, high academic achieving, backgrounds not so 'good' families simply horrifies me Shock.

Yes, so some parents indulge in ......alcohol or drug abuse, swearing at school pick-up time, smoking ditto, crap parenting role, etc etc etc you add the details (sigh, yes even in an idyllic rural setting) it is (sadly) to be expected wherever you are.

I am satisfied with the choice of (available and local) education, for our bright and bubbly almost 5 year old, (as is she!). I'm just not overthinking it like so many people on MN seem to be forced into Sad.

mumeeee · 05/07/2011 22:39

YABU. She can send her child to whatever school she wants to. She also should send her child to the school she thinks is best for her child and not just send her to the village school to enable it to get funding. She can stii be involved in the community even if her child goes to a school outside of the village.

PreviouslyonLost · 05/07/2011 23:10

Mumeeee

I don't believe that 'Funding' is what it's all about. Money, schmoney... it's only paper after all.

If you live in a city, send your child to your local school, if you live in a village send your child to the local school.

Allinabinbag · 06/07/2011 09:28

Previouslyonlost, will you be quite so relaxed about the drug and alcohol use of the parents, the swearing etc (I'd also add in the big aggressive dogs at the school gate, the letters home asking the parents not to fight on school property etc) at secondary level? I think it's all very nice to be so relaxed about it (I wasn't so relaxed about it as the only m-c child in my special measures type school, they didn't have special measures then, but it was very deprived and got extra money for this reason) when your child is 5, but when they are getting teased for being 'posh' and 'geeky' for wanting to do any work, for being themselves, it's just not a nice place to be.

The estate I lived on had its share of problems, mainly quite a violent culture, and that spilled into the classroom, as did the benefit dependency, not prioritising school work (parents going up to the school to 'sort the teachers out), high level of deprivation and special need (mainly behavioural issues and delayed development. This inevitably had an effect in the classroom! I have been back to this estate recently, little has changed, but unlike my parents, I don't feel the need to send my children to the school there to be 'inclusive' and to stop m-c flight from the bad areas.

Your local school may be nothing like this, it may be a perfectly nice school and your friend may be being a snob. But I will absolutely not send my children to the local school at all costs, if 'local' is essentially somewhere that even the locals want to escape from.

PreviouslyonLost · 06/07/2011 15:55

Allinabinbag

As the OP Honeyfool was commenting on her local village school (and it's her friend that may or may not be a snob - mine are a mix of the posh and piss poor I described earlier Grin) I answered in all honesty that I believe our local village school is the best place to provide an education for my children.

That is NOT to say that it doesn't have major issues - we live in a beautiful small rural location but yes, there are still drug and alcohol dependent parents (who swear like troopers), a big dog at the gates, kids on Supervision Orders (Children (Scotland) Act 1995), children on ADHD meds, children who bully, and all the other problems you described above and might think would be exclusive to a more inner-city setting, so it's really not quite the middle-class rural idyll it may appear at first glance Grin.

However, I still think that it's the best place for our children, and yes I am relaxed about our choice because all these problems exist in modern Society and my children are part of that Society. I'd be far more fearful for their future should I choose to send them to the POSH school miles up the road where everything in the garden is rosy tra-la-la, and whose pupils will probably get their heads kicked in for being posh/swots/snobs the minute they hit the local High School.

I'm not being stubborn or devil-may-care about the quality of education my children may receive, just realistic about the fact that no school is perfect (no matter what OFSTED/HMIE may say Wink).

Honeyfool's point was that her local school had gained a poor reputation due to bad management in the past and was on the way up again, due in no small part perhaps to locals still choosing to send their children there. No pupils, no school - another community bites the dust Sad.

Fifis25StottieCakes · 06/07/2011 16:50

Extracts from a daming ofstead report where the school was put in special measures in 2005. The school was rated the worst in the LEA.

Name of school Primary is a school of average size. Almost a third of pupils are eligible for free school meals, which is above the national average. There are seven pupils from minority ethnic groups, all but one of whom has English as an additional language. The number of pupils with learning difficulties and/or disabilities is above average and there are three pupils with a statement of special educational need. When children start in the nursery, many do not have the skills or knowledge that are typical of 3 year olds. Communication skills are notably weaker than other skills. Nearly one tenth of pupils joined or left the school in the last school year other than at the normal time of admission. The school has attained a number of awards in recent years, including the Gold Smoke Free School Award, the Healthy School Award and the Activemark Gold.

*Overall, the quality of leadership and management in the school is inadequate. The headteacher provides too little direction for the work of the school and does not place enough emphasis on raising standards in learning. Other members of the senior management team have a strong commitment to raising standards, but their efforts are hampered by a high turnover in staff and frequent changes to systems that should help to improve pupils? learning. Because subject leaders and senior managers are not given the time or the opportunity to gain a good knowledge of standards and the quality of teaching and learning, the school does not have enough knowledge of its strengths and weaknesses to set priorities for improvement. This, and the lack of money to buy resources for learning, has led to frustration for some subject leaders who are keen to make improvements.

Too few people in the school, including governors, are involved in decision making. The school?s planned developments cover too short a period and are not properly costed, so that the school?s spending is not being managed effectively. Significant budget deficits in the past have made the headteacher cautious about spending. The result is that the school now has a large surplus in the budget while there are shortages in resources for learning throughout the school.

Grade: 4

The previous report was also bad with 5 out of 13 lessons observed being graded as poor or inadequate. There was also a high turnover of staff.

Extracts from 2007 ofstead report a year after the staff were sorted out and the headteacher of 20+ years was removed.

'Name of School' is a school of average size situated in an area of considerable social deprivation. The proportion of pupils who are eligible for free school meals is double the national average, and the proportion with learning difficulties and/or disabilities is high. The number of pupils from a minority ethnic group is very low, as is the number who have English as an additional language. Children generally start Nursery and Reception with skills which are lower than expected for their age, particularly in communication and creative development. The school has gained several awards in the past few years including the Healthy Schools Award. When the school was inspected in September 2005, it was judged to require special measures.

The leadership and management of the school are satisfactory with some good features, and exceptional leadership and management from the headteacher. The headteacher has a clear vision for the school, which is based upon high expectations for all pupils and staff. She knows the school very well and uses this knowledge effectively to improve the standards and the culture of the school through prompt, well-focused and often imaginative action. This has resulted in dramatic and far reaching improvements in the school; for example, in the more robust and creative curriculum, effective assessment and monitoring and, above all, in the quality of teaching. She involves pupils and staff very closely in school development; for example, through regular questionnaires and pupil interviews. This, together with staff?s existing high level of commitment to pupils, has resulted in a real sense of a thriving and developing school community

The quality of teaching has improved since the last visit. There are more examples of good teaching and these are more consistent across the school. Teachers are using a wider range of strategies and activities, and lessons are more interesting, engaging and enjoyable for the pupils. There were a number of examples of lessons which were imaginative and dynamic as well as being well planned, structured, and paced. These lessons created a shared enthusiasm for learning and were a pleasure to watch.

The headteacher has deployed staff and resources very effectively to gain maximum benefit for pupils, both through planned programmes of change and response to unforeseeable circumstances. For instance, the school has suffered with a high turnover of supply staff in some year groups previously.

Grade 3

Dear School
Thank you for welcoming us so well to your school. We felt that it was an exciting place to be, with your creativity days, visits to Seven Stories and a theatre group in the hall. You told us that you enjoy your learning. We could see that you do by your attitudes and the quality of your work.

We think that your school has improved out of all recognition since it was inspected nearly two years ago. It was placed in special measures then. This meant it needed some help to improve. Now, it has become satisfactory with many good features. This is a real achievement by all children and staff in the school. Well done!

This school is now well managed. At no point was it mentioned that the kids were the problem who are mainly from a deprived area. The report states the children are well behaved and eager to learn. Its a shame the school was unable to offer them even a satisfactory education.

I am keeping my fingers crossed for a good rating next time round. The school has been totally revamped. Friends who have kids who attend cannot praise the new headmistress enough.

All kids are entitled to a good education regardless of what class they are born into. Most of the good/outstanding schools attract teachers who stay. It is uunfair to say the kids are the problem. Yes some may come from disadvanaged backgrounds with disfunctional parents. What have they got to aspire to being chucked in a school which is poorly managed.

No i wouldnt put my kids in a failing school. I went to this one which was the same in the 80's. I didnt put my kids in my catchment primary as it was poorly managed by a headmistress who let the school slip year after year. 2 of my brothers went and one of them had 13 supply teachers in a year. The other one who had a stutter was made to stand on a table by the headmistress to read a book to the class as he had been naughty. It had nothing to do with the class of the parents.

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