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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Saw this headline, thought "It's GOT to be a Mumsnetter!"

437 replies

bupcakesandcunting · 24/05/2011 12:21

Yeah, yeah, it's a Daily Mail article but still [[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389593/Are-PC-parents-world-The-couple-raising-genderless-baby--protect-right-choice.html BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA!" Grin

They're coco loco, right? Surely no-one can say "fuck off, there's a dear" to THIS one?!

OP posts:
dittany · 26/05/2011 12:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 12:25

A lot of my own reality is based on respecting other peoples' right to live their own lives as they choose, without prejudice, discrimination or harm being caused to them.

As AnnieLobseder said further up, you sound like someone faced with a huge heap of dinosaur bones who insists that creationism happened.

You're clearly very set in your ways and it isn't up to me to change your offensive, outdated notions. But you still sound like a loon, and it makes me sad that someone with such strong views on oppression of and descrimination against one set of people in the world, has such bigoted views on another.

What would you do if your son came to you telling you he wanted to have gender reassignment surgery?

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 12:27

Also if someone is a tree and you decided to build a tree house in them. What would that be? Not assault given that you can't assault a tree.

And if you wouldn't dream of doing something like that to that particular tree (because they were actually a human), would that make you a bigot?

Dittany, see a doctor.

LadyOfTheManor · 26/05/2011 12:29

I'd tell my son that gender isn't something we choose just because we're fed up.

We're born a particular gender and he'll have to live with being male...and no matter what dress he puts on and what he calls himself, he'll still be male due to his ability to produce sperm and not eggs.

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 12:30

"He'll have to live with being male"

To the point where he is so depressed he considers, or even commits, suicide? Hmm

snoozin · 26/05/2011 12:34

it's quite clearly a boy. they have two already. if it was a girl, you'd know! i smell a mum who's missed out at having a daughter and is being a bit unbalanced about it!

LadyOfTheManor · 26/05/2011 12:43

Toby, do you think him wearing a dress and taking hormones changes the fact he is male? No. And neither do I.

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 12:48

But if it makes him a happier and better-adjusted person then that's all I could hope for, were it my own son.

SoupDragon · 26/05/2011 12:52

Dear god, are you really so insecure that you can't accept someone born male who wants to live fully as a female? If Brian down the road wants to undergo surgery and live as Brenda, fine. I will be happy to treat them as a female and think of them as such. It really makes no difference.

Perhaps this is because I don't treat men and women differently to start with.

SoupDragon · 26/05/2011 12:53

"No Soup, because the female would have ovaries, in theory she can produce eggs, regardless of whether or not she can conceive."

Oh, right. So she would be male if she were born with no ovaries at all. Thanks for clearing that up.

dittany · 26/05/2011 12:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 12:57

despite saying you'd treat a person who says they are a tree as a tree, you wouldn't in fact

What? So you know me well enough to call me a liar, now? You seem to be making a habit of this, dittany.

I'm tired of hearing the old "it's all in their heads" line being trotted out. Schizophrenia is also "all in the head". Does that make it any less real?

dittany · 26/05/2011 13:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 13:11

Exactly. Treatment for schizophrenia is drugs. Treatment for body dysphoria is counselling and surgery.

You're being ridiculous, dittany, and you know it. But I'll go along in the hope that you'll stop this ridiculous line of argument.

I don't climb trees. So no, I wouldn't climb them.
I don't build treehouses because they damage trees. So no, I wouldn't build a treehouse in them.
I don't chop down trees for firewood. So no, I wouldn't burn them.

Tambern · 26/05/2011 13:35

And Dittany could you please stop the ridiculous FTM ignorance? I'm actually bewildered as to how you can think that they somehow don't count or don't have a place in this discussion.

Out of interest did you see the post I made addressing you a page or so back?

What I'm trying to get at, is when it came down to it, would you address a transgender individual by the name of their chosen or assigned gender? If you were introduced to 'Jonathan' who looked and acted male, but who you happened to know was trans and actually called Joanna, which would you call them? Would you use the male pronoun in conversation about them?

MillyR · 26/05/2011 13:37

AL said:

'Sex and gender, from a biological point of view, are very far from static and hard-wired. Transgenders are not men dressing up as women. There are chromosomal men with women's bodies (Jamie-Lee Curtis is one) and vice versa.'

This is simply not true. A tiny minority of transgender people are intersex, and many intersex people are not transgender. Transgender is a social identity - it has nothing to do with biological evidence of some kind of uncommon expression of XY chromosomes. It would be like saying that some women are infertile so women as a group are infertile. It is simply an attempt to pathologise all trans people and make them out to be some kind of special biological case.

Transgender is a social identity and so cannot be defined through the biological sciences. It is not the same thing as being intersex.

You cannot make judgements about gender from a biological point of view because gender as a social identity is not a biological reality; it is a social construction. It cannot be compared to creationism and dinosaur bones because evolution is a biological reality; it isn't socially constructed.

It is a very dangerous road to go down because you are effectively saying that people who reject their assigned gender role may only do so if they can demonstrate some kind of physical or mental abnormality, which is what frequently happens, and gives a lot of power to doctors.

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 13:40

If you were introduced to 'Jonathan' who looked and acted male, but who you happened to know was trans and actually called Joanna, which would you call them? Would you use the male pronoun in conversation about them?

LOTM has already said she would. I'm guessing dittany would too. I can't imagine how rude you would have to be in order to do this.

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 13:41

evolution is a biological reality; it isn't socially constructed.

Despite there being some morons people who think otherwise Hmm

MillyR · 26/05/2011 13:46

I don't even understand the question here. Does the person want to be referred to as Jonathan or Joanna? Does the person want to be referred to as he or she?

Tambern · 26/05/2011 13:46

But Dittany actually has some serious objections to the very nature of trans individuals, while I would hazard a guess from the style of arguing that LoTM just finds them distasteful.

Tambern · 26/05/2011 13:48

Sorry Milly I guess it wasn't very clear. If there was a FTM who was born female and christened Joanna, then later chose to present as a man named Jonathan, and wanted to be referred to with male pronouns and a male name, then what would you call him assuming you knew of his original gender identity?

AnnieLobeseder · 26/05/2011 13:50

My reason for raising intergender, or biologically cross-gender, was to demonstrate that in terms of actual, physical, pure biology, male and female are not fixed points. Mostly, males have testicles and XY chromosome, and mostly, women have a uterus and XX chromosomes. But this is not always so. Some XX women don't have ovaries or a uterus. Some XY chromosome 'males' have a uterus and ovaries. Without male hormones, every foetus would develop a uterus no matter what chromosomes it carried. So there is simply no disputing the fact that biologically, being male or female is not always definite.

I see no reason why the same should be true of our brains. Neurological chemistry is just as complicated as any other part of our biology. How can it be clearly true that some people are neither male nor female in the biology, but not true that some people are equally conflicted in the their neurological make-up?

I have absolutely no problem accepting that trans-gender comes from a neurological disorder, in the same way that intersex comes from a genetic or hormonal disorder. But it's a real biological condition, not a delusion.

I will add the disclaimer that this is my conclusion, extrapolated from biological fact, not something which has been proved to be true. Or maybe it has... I haven't looked. I'll go look now, actually.....

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 13:51

Tambern, I'm sorry. I meant 'wouldn't', obviously. I'm guessing you'd gathered that Blush

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 13:53

I have absolutely no problem accepting that trans-gender comes from a neurological disorder, in the same way that intersex comes from a genetic or hormonal disorder. But it's a real biological condition, not a delusion.

Oh, Annie. I wish I'd thought of this. This is what I've wasted 2 days trying to get across.

MillyR · 26/05/2011 13:57

Okay, I would refer to him as him, if it was somebody I knew socially or was working with. If I was in some kind of internet debate about trans, I might forget, because the person isn't right there in front of me interacting with me.

That doesn't mean that I don't disagree with some elements of trans activism or that I hold certain beliefs about sex and gender, but I'm not going to make the assumption that a trans individual holds those beliefs either just because they are trans. Nor would I feel it appropriate to discuss it with them unless they raise the topic with me.