Saw this headline, thought "It's GOT to be a Mumsnetter!"

[bupcakesandcunting]

Yeah, yeah, it's a Daily Mail article but still [[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389593/Are-PC-parents-world-The-couple-raising-genderless-baby--protect-right-choice.html BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA!"

They're coco loco, right? Surely no-one can say "fuck off, there's a dear" to THIS one?!

they refer to storm as (s)he and the child has a name. hardly the same thing.

Dittany

I meant to read to the end of the thread but your comment

'Also, don't bring in FTM trans - men don't accept them as men. Nobody is bullying men to accept FTM as men either'

is so breathtakingly ignorant I have to pick it up.

In point of fact I know quite a few FTMs who pass, are accepted as men and live as such. I know FTMs who are transitioning and are accepted by their male friends. The same goes for MTFs - thankfully the world and its gender roles aren't as black and white as you imagine.

Transphobia directed at FTMs is covered equally by anti-discrimination legislation. There is no sense in which women are being more 'bullied' than men to accept gender reassignments.

It's unfortunate that you've chosen to include in the shrill persecution complex you uphold on behalf of all women a community of which you plainly know nothing. I've seen posts in plenty of other situations where you speak up admirably on women's behalf, but the position you're defending here just makes you seem ignorant, ungenerous and prejudiced.

And I say you're breathtakingly ignorant. Because while there may well be cases such as the ones you've described you clearly have absolutely no idea of what the experience of FTMs is.

I didn't say separatist feminists weren't under pressure from trans activists to modify their position in the case of MTFs. The topic of whether MTFs are or should be accepted as woman is hotly debated, and causes some epic bunfights within - for example - the lesbian community.

I do say, though, that you don't seem to know enough about the trans community - understandable, as you appear to see it as a 'delusion' like schizophrenia - be in a position to compare the competing aims of separatist feminists and MTF trans activists with the experience of FTMs. And I say further that while you may think your beliefs are justified, to me they're astonishingly bigoted and offensive.

Fair enough?

Dittany, many men rape and abuse women. Does that make every man a rapist? Should we judge every man on the behaviour of some of them? From a few examples you've extrapolated wildly and in a highly highly bigoted fashion. You're not even acknowledging FTM simply because their experiences don't fit in with your general viewpoint

You know, it makes lots of sense that a separatist feminist would be hostile to anything that problematises rigid gender norms. Separatist feminists need rigid gender norms to structure their identity. If gender is fluid, then you can't know your enemy: is that ex-woman part of the patriarchy, or not? Is that ex-man part of the sisterhood, or not? As you say, it's a mindfuck. Best just to shout at them until they go away. That way, you can be certain that you know who to hate and blame for your own generalised feelings of persecution.

In my reality, gender equality isn't gained by standing on the necks of other sexual minorities. 'Fuck you, I've got mine' has worked well for men for millennia; if it works for me, why not for women? Great - let's let's reduce everyone to what's between their legs, let's choose our friends and enemies based on their genitalia, let's reify social constructions of gender, let's choose who we hate on that basis and call it feminism. Not in my world.

You may think you speak for women, dittany, but you don't speak for me.

It's trans that essentialises gender, arguing that being a woman is an essence, a feeling rather than a physical reality in the body.

If reducing everything to what's between our legs is an oppressive thing that men have done for millennia, why are you defending your own right to do precisely that? Oh, wait, you're claiming your own right to the patriarchal position of 'fuck you, I've got mine'.

Identifying with the oppressor is understandable but not very impressive. Transpeople are a sexual minority, like gay people. But wait, you don't give a shit about that - you don't even know what 'sexual minorities' might mean. I'm surprised that someone can call themselves a feminist and know so little about the broader field of sexual politics, but then we can't all be gifted with imagination or empathy, can we?

As for your right to speak for yourself, you're welcome to that. Better than claiming to speak for - God forbid - the gender we unfortunately share. Your narrow-mindedness and bigotry is disgraceful, but I learned a long time ago that there's no point arguing the toss with self-contradictory fanatics.

If anybody out there is affected by views such as those expressed by Dittany, you can do something. Every good company should have anti-discrimination and equal opportunity polices. If Dittany were to express her views in the workplace she would be disciplined and eventually sacked.
Outside of work if you suffer abuse by somebody concerning your race, sex, gender identity, disability, etc you can call 999.
People who act on the views expressed by some in this thread are breaking the law.
You do not have to put up with it.

Sorry, but laughing out loud at the second to last sentence there. Mainly as I know you are being serious.

Sorry x posted. I was laughing at this..

Thanks for demonstrating the bullying women experience when we don't bow down to the mighty penis and whatever it wants though Tiggy.

There is no bullying going on here.

Wow! I have a mighty penis!

I said acting on opinions because opinions are fine, but if you called a TS woman 'he' at your place of work you would probably get sacked.