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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Saw this headline, thought "It's GOT to be a Mumsnetter!"

437 replies

bupcakesandcunting · 24/05/2011 12:21

Yeah, yeah, it's a Daily Mail article but still [[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389593/Are-PC-parents-world-The-couple-raising-genderless-baby--protect-right-choice.html BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA!" Grin

They're coco loco, right? Surely no-one can say "fuck off, there's a dear" to THIS one?!

OP posts:
dittany · 26/05/2011 14:52

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MillyR · 26/05/2011 14:54

I'm not missing the point at all. I am pointing that you are attempting to create an analogy between biological sex, which is limited in its plasticity after leaving the environment of the uterus, and socially constructed behaviour like gender roles, which have extremely high levels of plasticity in childhood and adult life.

You are then taking other biological human traits and attempting to create some fixed idea of which traits are preferable for human fitness in order to further bolster your argument that behaviour is as genetically determined as biological sex. This does not make sense when one of the major attributes of humans is that a huge amount of our behaviour is culturally determined, as can be seen by the massive diversity in human culture worldwide.

AnnieLobeseder · 26/05/2011 14:57

Not all biological issues are genetic. Some are hormonal, problems with foetal development, environmental influence such as chemicals or radiation. Or a combination of all of these. So the answer is, I don't know where to start. I don't know what research has previously been done, or is in progress. It's not my field. Will a gene be found? Could be. They found one (or more, I'm not sure) for homosexuality. There's no simple answer.

Anyway, I need to go, please continue to argue amongst yourselves.

AnnieLobeseder · 26/05/2011 14:59

MillyR - that is one of the most well-worded and rational arguments I've seen in a while, and certainly on this thread, and I will be back to address it. Sorry but no time now.

dittany · 26/05/2011 15:39

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bupcakesandcunting · 26/05/2011 16:07

"I'd tell my son that gender isn't something we choose just because we're fed up.

We're born a particular gender and he'll have to live with being male...and no matter what dress he puts on and what he calls himself, he'll still be male due to his ability to produce sperm and not eggs."

Holy cow :( I really hope I am never that sort of mother.

Everything that Toby has said today, I am nodding furiously at. Tiggy was right Toby; you'll never change a bigot's mind. I'd walk away from this thread now. You've made your points very well and there is nothing else to be gained. LOTM and Dittany won't change their minds. Come and have some fun somewhere else with old Cunting. Wink

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MillyR · 26/05/2011 16:08

I have heard that there is research (although I have never read it) that the environment of the uterus changes when a woman has been through multiple pregnancies. This is supposed to be the cause of boys who have many older siblings being more likely to have same sex preferences in sexual and/or romantic relationships.

Even if this were to be true, it doesn't mean that all people who have same sex preferences do so because of a biological event. There are probably different reasons why different people have same sex preferences, and different reason again why different people choose to adopt that as a social identity and others choose not to adopt that as a social identity.

I don't think that the reasons why somebody is gay should really play any part in deciding to treat being gay as an entirely normal and acceptable choice. I also think that attempting to give sexuality one single cause isn't helpful in allowing people space and support in coming out. Some people will know what their sexuality is when they are 10; some people will be sure that their sexuality is one thing at 15 and another thing at 30. Some people will be uncertain of what their sexuality is for many years.

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 16:20

Already had walked away, buppy, but came back because you'd posted again and I can't resist your charms Grin

TobyLerone · 26/05/2011 16:21

When I say 'charms', I mean 'boobs'. You know that, right?

niceday · 26/05/2011 20:51

Are we just lacking correct terms? In some languages sex and gender are not separate words. You only have one from birth.
So if we have both sex and gender, should we add more definitions to confuse ourselves?

SEX: male (man) and female(woman)
GENDER: male, female, trans, free, undefined, and American
To avoid confusion male&female gender should be replaced with something else...

AnnieLobeseder · 26/05/2011 21:44

Yes, dittany, they have found a tendency for a certain genetic pattern in homosexual males. And no, that doesn't mean you can do a 'test' for it. In the same way that having a gene that makes you susceptible to cancer doesn't mean you'll get it. Environmental factors play a part.

I agree with you, though MillyR, that giving homosexuality a biological cause isn't ultimately helpful except to enlighten people like my mother who are still convinced it's just attention-seeking behaviour. I would say, also, that your point about how some people are most certain about their sexuality than others supports my position that sexuality, as with gender, is a spectrum, not an absolute.

As for your previous post, MillyR, I brought more 'fixed' human traits such as height into the equation just to demonstrate that very few of us are ideal in terms of human fitness. It had nothing to do with the sex or gender argument. I will point out, though, since you fixed on height, that this too is a plastic trait. This generation of Oriental people are much taller than previous generations due to a more Western diet.

However, having given this more thought. I do maintain that gender and/or next are not nearly as neatly fixed as some posters would like, and there are in fact a range of points on a spectrum between fertile heterosexual male and fertile heterosexual female. We're still all people, not two different species fighting over the same ecological niche. But, it has occurred to me that our current social construct doesn't help males with a more feminine thought-pattern, or vice versa. If society was more accepting of men in make-up and dresses who like to bake cupcakes, and of women with cropped hair and biker jackets, accepting them as completely normal, perhaps these people would be more like to be happier as their assigned gender. Perhaps in society as it stands, they feel it easier to actually have their genitalia mutilated than live as an effeminate man or butch women, such is society's condemnation of them.

But since I'm not a transgender, and have never discussed this with them, I could be talking utter bullshit, so I won't speculate further.

Anyway, I've spent too much head space on this, so I won't post further, though I will continue to read with interest.

dittany · 26/05/2011 22:34

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AnnieLobeseder · 26/05/2011 22:42

dittany, get yourself on PubMed and read the articles yourself.

dittany · 27/05/2011 08:55

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SoupDragon · 27/05/2011 12:00

Is the genetic tendency for cancer junk science too given that some people with it won't get cancer and some without it will?

dittany · 27/05/2011 12:01

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SoupDragon · 27/05/2011 12:05

So, what do you think causes behavioural tendencies? Do you think they manifest out of the mists of nothingness?

SoupDragon · 27/05/2011 12:08

Finding a common genetic tendency amongst homosexual males is really no different to finding a common genetic tendency amongst certain cancer sufferers.

But, TBH, I can't be arsed to debate anything with you any more because you are so clearly right about everything and refuse to ever see points of vew other than your own.

dittany · 27/05/2011 12:08

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LadyOfTheCuntryManor · 27/05/2011 12:09

Dittany I was just about to copy and paste your question...!

dittany · 27/05/2011 12:12

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dittany · 27/05/2011 12:14

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SoupDragon · 27/05/2011 12:25

This isn't the first time I have been in a debate with you, Dittany, and you were just as patronising and condescending to any who disagreed with you on those other occasions too. Yes, others have opinions and they think they are right but they are usually open for debate and manage to avoid acting quite so superior as you. I generally hide a thread as soon as you enter the fray because at that point it becomes wasted effort. As for being a sock puppet for Annie, that's really rather pathetic don't you think?

You said cancer was not a behaviour (no shit sherlock) but what makes you think that core behaviour is not rooted in our genetic code? Behaviours such as sexual preference come from somewhere, they surely don't simply manifest out of the mists of nothingness. There could easily be some basic genetic code that makes certain behaviours, coupled with environmental factors in others. Rather like the genetic tendency for certain cancers coupled with environmental factors...

I am not a geneticist, nor am I a scientist. Nor, I think, are you. I am perfectly willing to see the possibilities of our genetic code with an open mind.

Back to the core debate on this thread - If a transexual wants to be called he/she then that is what I would do and treat them as they wish to be treated. Not because the are now actually a man/woman but because it really doesn't make a difference whether Brian is now Brenda or vice versa. It would be rude and obnoxious to do otherwise.

I have now hidden the thread.

dittany · 27/05/2011 12:41

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donnie · 27/05/2011 12:46

stupid parents. Reminds me of Prince in his 'don't call me anything just refer to me as a sign' days. clearly these parents are as up themselves and as arrogant as the purple one.

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