to keep DS off school until they can look after him properly??

[ASecretLemonadeDrinker]

I am so upset and so angry. DS has soiling problems - waiting for paed. app. afte fruitless GP visits/diet changes. Have had threads in the past (me being called to take DS home, all the time he is sitting on a paper towel in his own shit) and today was the sae. Although, today was "so bad we had to change him" (!??!) but he came home socks covered in shit, dry shit down his les and shorts on so they could definatly see it all! THey had half heartedly changed him thenshoved clean shorts on him and made him wait for me like that. And he missed the last hour or so of school - again. I have talked and talked to them - they said they would remind and "make" him go after lunch (the only luck I have is getting him to try and sometimes we time it right - other than that he has little/no sense of going) - DS tells me they haven't. He jumped was soaked with poo , hands dirty & stunk of poo.... They just handed him over and told me to "gee him up" with toileting.

I can't snd him back, I just can't - my heart breaks when I seeing him sitting on him own in his own poo patiently waiting for me :(

OP, please complain to your Chair of Governors if the school don't start responding satisfactorily. Their name should be published by the local council or you can get it from any parent governor and you need to go through the school complaints procedure before the LEA will get involved. The governors should have someone with specific responsibility for SEN, which is not only children who are statemented but any child who needs some additional support. I am a CoG for my local school and would hope to be hearing about this.

OP - I have experience of this with one of mine. This thread was helpful, and this book was invaluable.

It sounds like a terrible situation and that school aren't meeting your son's needs. :(

It's also worth pointing out, that if DS hasn't yet got a medical diagnosis, the school will be struggling to obtain funding for another TA who could perhaps dedicate time to cleaning DS. At the moment, TA jobs are being cut. So those of us who are left are simply stretched further.

If DS is messing regularly, he needs to be in incontinence pads. of course, these should be changed ASAP. If it is just an occational accident, you are not being unreasonable to expect them to deal with it.

But staff aren't there (and don't have time) to clean up mess on furniture, change soiled clothes and wash shit off kids several times daily. TAs are NOT there for that.

Hissy she has not said he is doing it ALL day! But we haven't had all the ins and uts admittedly - and nor has she said she refused to help more. We would need clarification from Op for this. I would be fuming though if my DS were sent home with poo all over him - as would my DH, who is a teacher.

Bunty, I worked in the best school ever in Plymouth! I miss it sooooo much and have been spoilt, I know I have. They are in a poor catchment area but got Outstanding from OFSTED last year, the only primary in the area to attain this under the new regime

But even my lesser caring primary oop North always finds the time to sort children out

Oh and TA's are there to provide support, learning and care.

I have worked with a child in the past who used to poo in his pants and not tell us (on purpose) then stick his hands down his pants and run up to us with poo in all his finger nails and all over his hands (this was at nursery btw) and it WAS hideous and he WAS doing it on purpose - obviously some issues though - we still cleaned him up!

To be honest, they would be pleased for you to keep them off...its not their job to clean up your child's shit..they are there to educate him!

School have a duty of care, but you need an intimate care plan drawn up specifically for your child with details of frequency of toileting, named adults involved in his care, agreement as to where he goes, what materials are provided by whom such as wipes, pull-ups, changes of clothing.
The plan needs to be created by the medics involved, so the school can work on which pairs of adults will be responsible for changing him, how to ensure he is properly cleaned and what happens to the soiled waste idf it can't be flushed.
It takes two adults at a moment's notice, and up to 20 minutes to clean a real mess in inadequate facilities. That needs a lot of planning, and if the situation is long-term he's going to need 1:1 by the time he gets to Y1.

Without 1:1, the rest of the class are being deprived of support in their learning for a significant amount of time, and if the teacher has to borrow another TA from a class so that for protection purposes there are two adults, that's two classes affected.

I'm amazed there's not more sympathy for the OP here. I guess the ones not showing sympathy haven't had any of this with their own kids. It's amazing how something as seemingly insignificant as continence issues can bring total havoc to the most loving and secure families.

FGS, he's not pooing continually all day. It's not going to cause major disruption for the entire school if someone has the common humanity to clean him up. AND the nous to realise it's a legal obligation.

Btw, people with continence problems at the other end of life are sometimes treated badly too. story here

I think some of the attitudes on this thread and from the NHS workers involved in this horrifying case stem from prejudice and ignorance. Which is shameful. Caring for elderly people or children sometimes does mean you have to deal with wee and poo. Anyone who is too soft to deal with it shouldn't be in healthcare or in schools.

Those people saying that schools are there to educate not change children ,are they seriously suggesting that children with continents issues are not entitled to an education.Presumeably they should be kept away from society and therefore they have no need to learn to read and write.It could take several years for these issues to be sorted out and you can only have these early education years once.I am shocked at some of the views on this thread I really thought as a society we had moved on.

OP you need to really push for that paediatric appointment and get onto the school nurse and LEA.Good Luck

"On the other side of the coin

Would you like to have to clean up some other child's poo every day?"

Ermmm....care assistants do it ALL day long. Nurses do it ALL day long. It is part of the job.

Teaching children isn't just plonking their brain in a jar and filling it with knowledge, it is teaching the whole child. If that involves a little bit of teaching about self-care skills, so be it.

How OUTRAGED would you all be if the OP had complained that:

-A child was injured and not taken to hospital/given first aid.
-A child was bullied and no action was taken
-A child was horrendously lonely and isolated, and no support was given.
-A child was abused by a parent, neglected, and no action was taken by the school.

All teachers have a choice when they enter teaching. They can choose to teach in the Primary phase or the Secondary phase. If they don't want to deal with the self-care limitations of small children, don't choose Primary!

I agree that he is entitled to an education, and to be comfortable and happy whilst he is receiving it.
If he had a care plan, the school would need to put things into place to ensure his additional needs are met effectively, which they are not doing at the moment.
It doesn't eradicate the needs of the other children in the class, nor does the OP suggest that it should be the case. Her son needs proper support.

verybored we have had a carrot and stick approach too. We've got to a fairly steady state on this (since Christmas).

When DS does a wee in the loo he gets 1 haribo
When DS does a poo in the loo he gets 2 haribo
When DS poos in his pants his favourite websites are blocked. They are unlocked immediately he does a poo in the loo.

We still have bad patches every so often - especially when he's ill, but he's reached a steady state and is on one sachet of movicol today which helps tremendously.

I agree with others suggesting constipation as a possible cause for the OP. Unfortunately, very constipated children can be very regular, and have frequent soiling accidents.

I think it's more to do with the fact people are scared of being accused of things if they are in an intimate situation with a pupil. People do make accusations. Some are true, some aren't. But either way your career is over. So they ask for a witness and then that's both members of staff out.
I'm not making excuses, it's a terrible situation. But I think this has a lot to do with it.

I don't think anyone should object to cleaning a child up who has an occasional accident. When it is fairly frequently, there needs to be other support in place.
It's not just squeamishness, for all those posting who think if you don't want to deal with poo, you shouldn't be a primary teacher
there are a range of issues from protecting the child and adults involved, the heath and safety of all of the children if the soiling isn't contained properly, lack of appropriate facilities and materials, what to do with the other 29 children if you want the teacher to be the cleaner...
There needs to be a proper meeting, and a record of what they are going to do in the future to meet the needs of the child. with all adults involved, and support from outside agencies if the school are struggling.

Popped back on - at MILs so not so much internet access.

He does it every few weeks. Some weeks it's twice that week, then nothing for weeks. Once has been twice in a day.

They used to clean him up, and give me clothes home in a bag - before he started this school I discussed this problem with them, they assured me it was OK, others did it, they would just change him.

A few times he came home changed but not cleaned up, or unchanged (I thought they must not have realised on those occasions), but now they call me up and leave him sitting in it. I live about a 10-15 minute drive, plus 'getting ready time' (I have 2 more youngers DSs to pack into the car) , I can be about 20 odd minutes. Some days I work - it will take me the best part of 45 mins on those days, but I work in a creche so cannot leave if there are too many children. That's obviously no the schools fault, but they are prepared to let him sit in it and wait for me al that time.

I don't mind changing him, it's a real struggle though with 2 other DSs (one I have to lay on the disabled toilet floor - 9 months) but that's not the issue. I'd change him several timesa day if he needed it, but, I can't get there in a reasonable time IMO. He is being singled out, humiliated, made to miss out on education... He can dress himself well, there is no need for him to be covered in excrement. They have a bag full of packs of wipes , I sent some in too - they do not appear to use them though! They have several TAs /classroom assistants and a SENCO who gives another girl physio in the class. That is the only lady who I have known to actually clean up DS.

He started to get scared of the toilets at school because they are in the cloakroom which is used a corridor. We made a plan with the teacher that he was to be taken to the toilet, evryday after lunch when it was quiet. This happened once or twice and never again. We asked them to remind him at reasonable intervals - he says this doesn't happen, but we cannot know for sure.

His paed. appointment is 15th April, and still waiting for Thursday morning to see the head teacher. I don't know if that is a reasonable time frame to wait to see the head given the circumstances? Should I write a letter too? I am not good at all this, I kept trying to work with the school . DH I think got through on the phone to the lady (TA?) who handed DS over and she tried to stop him meeting the head! How she could grin like a cheshire cat while handing over an upset DS covered in shit is beyond me - that was the lady who also handed him over with paper towels hanging out of his trousers, covered in shit making it all go up his jacket etc. How on earth could anyone think it was OK to do that??

To those who believe that funding would be supplied for a 1:1 carer purely on the basis of soiling alone (and occasional soiling at that), I don't know where you live but around here 1:1 is reserved for a child who truly needs it, often more behavioural issues than medical needs.

Soiling and accidents happen it is a part of growing up some children manage it quicker and more effectively than others. My dd was dry and poo free for over a year before her constipation kicked in and she started soiling and as a result of the presuure in her bowel being wet as well.

We are lucky (although it shouldn't have to be the case) her class teachers knew we were concerned and had seen GP and hospital specialist, they helped with a referal to the school nurse, who than put us in touch with the continence team. Knowing that there is someone to help dd should she have an accident makes school a MUCH more pleasant and supportive environment. I have posted earlier about this although dd is aware that is is not nice to soil etc because she knows she can ask for help if she has an acciodent she is not reluctant to go into school (she loves school). The school should provide care for the whole child not just the educational bits they fancy (hence the bullting policies and other care needs being met).

X posted.

TBH I think a formal letter with a copy to the chair of the Governors, the LEA etc about this is necessary have it with you ready to hand a copy to the HT if she is not prepared to improve the care provsison for your ds.

It needs to be robust about why they should be meeting his needs (with the legal points ?every child matters ?) and positive about what you expect to happen.

Even the fact that she can't see you until Thurs would to me say that she is not taking this seriously, she knows you currently have him at home (have you contacted the welfare officer (truancy bod?)) but does not seek to get him back to school sooner...

Good luck I think she hopes this is going to go away ( and you take him out of school)

Get some information from the eric website www.eric.org.uk and write a letter to the head with copy to chair of governors. Leaving a child to sit in excrement - the schools behaviour seems like a punishment for you and for him - and allowing him to be humiliated is not on.

If you left your child sat on a paper towel, with poo all down him, at home, without wiping him, you would have to expect a visit from SS.
Disgusting for the teachers to think this is acceptable behaviour.

I have found some guidance notes for our borough about blood and bodily fluids, lots to print and hi-light I think. I would have said maybe she isn't aware and will be 'bending over backwards' to help now it's been drawn to her attention, but not being able to see us until Thursday (even a quick phone call would have been a start!) shows she is pretty much on the same wavelength. It isn't a concern for her because he doesn't have to be at school until after Easter (turned 5 on 27/03/11).

the guidence notes are specifically for schools and colleges, including contaminated clothing being removed asap.