to keep DS off school until they can look after him properly??

[ASecretLemonadeDrinker]

I am so upset and so angry. DS has soiling problems - waiting for paed. app. afte fruitless GP visits/diet changes. Have had threads in the past (me being called to take DS home, all the time he is sitting on a paper towel in his own shit) and today was the sae. Although, today was "so bad we had to change him" (!??!) but he came home socks covered in shit, dry shit down his les and shorts on so they could definatly see it all! THey had half heartedly changed him thenshoved clean shorts on him and made him wait for me like that. And he missed the last hour or so of school - again. I have talked and talked to them - they said they would remind and "make" him go after lunch (the only luck I have is getting him to try and sometimes we time it right - other than that he has little/no sense of going) - DS tells me they haven't. He jumped was soaked with poo , hands dirty & stunk of poo.... They just handed him over and told me to "gee him up" with toileting.

I can't snd him back, I just can't - my heart breaks when I seeing him sitting on him own in his own poo patiently waiting for me :(

The problem is that, with the way our society is going, teachers and TAs are now warned about any physical contact at all with children just in case it leads to any accusations. Changing a child is seen by many authorities as inappropriate and it is that, rather than lack of time, that causes a lot of schools to call parents to change children.

Also, if a child was known to have regular, large poo accidents I would expect them to come to school in pull ups. I could easily cope with a quick wipe and new pants but would be very unwilling to clean up poo that had spread itself everywhere. I mean, I would do it, but I would expect it to be because it was a one off problem. If a regularly soiling child came into my classroom without them and soiled I'd be pretty cross (with the parent not the child of course).

A further point - I don't think it's that unreasonable to ask a nearly 5 year old to pop to the toilets, take his trousers off and clean the mess off his legs. Then a teacher could pop along and help with anything that had been missed.

So yes, sitting in his shit is totally unacceptable but it's a 3 way responsibility - parent, teacher and child - and schools are tied by a lot of legislation.

i do not know much about this kind of situation. but there is no way on earth i would let him back there if they leave him soiled. surely it breaks some human rights.

disgusting

I haven't read every post, but surely this comes dwn to a bit of bloody kindness?

I am a TA - I have NEVER sent a child home for soiling, ever - maybe I have always worked in nicer caring schools then?

If needbe, we always took 2 of us off into a toilet with said child. We had baby wipes, spare clothing and if we had a child that often had these issues, then parent would always provide full range of preferred cleaning items to make the child feel as comfortable as possible! Oh and have never worked in a school with a shower either, but alwasy managed to clean children up.

What they are doing is rather humiliating for him, no? poor thing.

Manic - I know what you are saying about asking a nearly 5 year old to start cleaning himself, but not all nearly 5 years olds are this competant are they? No matter wether one thinks they should be! Have had 7 year olds incapable before too!

Have they a SENCO you can talk to about the best plan and how you can all help him?

There is no legislation, guideline or generally accepted rule that prevents school staff changing a reception class Childs dirty underwear for them. There are however many, many rules that are intended to protect the health, dignity, human rights and self respect of children at school.

how very :( for your ds

dreadful that he is left on soiled pants and literally sitting in his own shit :(

yes teachers or ta should be able to clean up your ds, and if cleaned within minutes of telling them, then easily wiped off, but can also understand that they may not want to keep doing this,plus they shouldnt be left alone with a naked child (to protect theirselves and the child)

im wondering if maybe ds isnt telling his teachers when it happens as either fear or embarrassment and therefore when you pick him up, he has been in poo for hours and hence hard/dried on?

I would be having serious words with the head its not on!
I used to work with children with SN and changing isnt that hard! SEnd in lots of wips and bags and changes of clothes.
I would suggest something like pullups if he will wear them as theese keep mess in (you should be able to get free specialist ones via HV as it a medical issue)
This shouldnt be happening, he is entitled to the same hours of education as every other child and its the schools job to ensure he gets it.
I would suggest he has a timetable himself (visual if neeeded) so he can take himself off to the loo, or even a little watch with an alarm on it.

and manic, i agree, children at school should be able to wipe their own bottom

im a nanny and have always started to make my dc wipe their own bottoms from an early age (obv i check) as for when they are at school and have to do it on their own

my dc now 5 was quite capable of wiping bottoms at nearly 4, yet ive had in previous years, charges friends over for a playdate after school/in holidays etc at 6/7yrs and yell on the toilet ;'wipe my bum' which i reply no,do it yourself

op - always make sure ds has lots of clean clothes/wipes/pants etc as well as maybe send him to school in pull ups till gp can refer you and you can get the help he needs

TBH,I can't help but wonder if they're leaving him to sit in it as an attempt of snapping him out of doing it iyswim ??

8.30 Thursday morning is the only time the Head can see me. It's like half term all over again!

Like other people who have responded, your post really upset me, on behalf of you and your son. My heart really and truely goes out to him.

I really think that if the school can not clean your son up properly then you should take him out until you find out from your GP (or whoever) exactly what the issue is.

This is his reception year, he should be playing and enjoying it. If he perceives that he is a 'problem' in some way, it could affect how he feels about school for many years. Let alone other children knowing him as the boy who poos himself, that kind of label sticks throughout school.

I realise that SEN inclusion means that there needs to be a policy in place to manage each child's needs and if their needs are physical such as incontinence then the school needs to put processes in place. However, as another poster said, the trouble you have is that your ds doesn't have a 'label' to his physical difficulties yet.

The other alternative is to come down like a tonne of bricks on the school. Write letters to the head and governers and start using phrases such as quoting the SEN act etc.

As an aside, I have a friend who recently retired from her job as a primary school teacher. For decades she had been taking year 6 (age 10/11) on a 5 day trip in their final term at the school. She said every year, at least 2 mums would come to her discreatly worried that their child was not yet dry at night. Each one would be embarrased at having the conversation and explain how worried their child was about the trip. She would tell each one, year after year, that it wasn't a problem and they would deal with any accidents quietly.

Thursday morning the only time the HT can see you? Don't believe it. Shows how little importance she's placing on his needs. And attendance.

could he wear pull ups or similar?, maybe then he could have another one in bag so its contained and wouldnt be so horriffic for him incase of issue.
how does he feel about it? I presume upset? does he know he needs to go or is it totally not understood by him?
sorry its not nice for you / him

My BF is a primary school child, & I dont think they are allowed to undress children unless supervised by another teacher, thus requiring 2 teachers out of teahing & all other kids left to run riot, so I can see its not straightforwards for them too. If he is assigned SN they would have an assistant TA who could assist in such cases, realise that doesnt help, but thought it might give you some perspective in terms of why theyre not more willing?

hope all works out soon

Hi sorry dont know too much about this. WAs thinking if teacher cant clear him up, could she at least get him to take his socks off, pass him socks etc to put on himself? If he's no good at dresssing himself, thats something you could be working on meantime. Obviously i think it would be better if he was cleaned upm properly.
Also I think theres a watch he can wear that vibrates to remind him to go to the loo. Cant think whats its calkled though.

said watch

the

I have not read all the thread as in a rush. But ds2 went through same thing, still is a bit but getting better. The first school was not very good, kept ringing me to pick him up (felt like giving up work) when I picked him up they were off and made me feel bad even though they knew he was under the hospital and having various tests done. But they did always clean him. We then moved house so therefore schools, the new school was fantastic. I put in his bag baby wipes and change of clothes like I always had and they just cleaned him no problem no fuss. DS2 started to actually like going to school as the teachers were not making him feel bad.
So the way the school is acting is not accaeptable and I would consider putting in a complaint to ofsted about the school.
Secondly get in touch with the school nurse, every school is assigned one (but they not based at the school) the school office will be able to tell you the number. They are very good at putting schools straight on what they should be doing to support you and your ds.
Also get your ds to go to the toilet half an hour after each meal. This is the time your body is more likely to go. Set an egg timer for 5 mins and give him a magazine and get him to sit there till the timer goes off. Also get him a stool to put his feet. It is very hard to push a poo out if your feet are not on the floor. This tips have helped ds2.

I do feel for you, but I used to work in a school, and I can imagine the pressure if two TA's had to leave what they were doing, perhaps for a longish time,with no warning, both at the same time.

The only private place to change a child, plus 2 adults, would be the toilet for disabled users. An ordinary cubicle is too small. The lovely TA's I know work at the local school are both very very large ladies and could never fit in a cubicle together.

Also, if accidents happen at lunch time, the TA's are on their break, and may not even be on the premises.

Horrible to leave a little child in that state, awful, but I can see the practical difficulties.

Bunty we did it many times and there was never any pressure - it does not take that long if dealt with straight away. We had no disabled toilet at the time and always managed to keep privacy for the child, it really is possible.

No one can see that it is less humiliating for a child to be sat with caked on poo on a paper towel whilst waiting for his Mum than to be changed and cleaned in the best place possible.

say not see

maxybrown But who does it at lunch time, for example?

I work in a nursery so I have cleaned up countless accidents, but we had a changing area to do it in, and lunch breaks at nursery have the same staff ratio as other hours, which schools don't have.

Can all the people saying it's not reasonable for staff to change children please look at the posts about the Disability Discrimination Act, and consider the term 'in loco parentis'?

Schools can't just opt out of their legal and moral responsibilities.

Lemonade, feel so sorry for your poor boy. Am a governor and I'd be horrified if this was happening at ds's school.

er, we did! Or a teacher or office staff! I would have hated to se a child distressed over something like that - and that was all before I had my own child! If it happened to DS now I would be devasted also!

In one school we had dinner ladies so Ta's were always around at lunchtime and in last school TAs did lunchtime duty but we could always manage it or a teacher did it! I have changed loads of them in schools

what if a child was having a fit or being sick or anything really? We can't just say sorry you'll have to get on with it, regulations say I should be in this place and this place only. (I don;t think YOUare saying this Bunty, just saying it generally btw!)

On the other side of the coin

Would you like to have to clean up some other child's poo every day?

Office staff cleaning up accidents! I wish others were as kind.

I worked one2one with a child with disabilities and was often pleaded with to deal with other children instead:
Can you watch Freddie, he is boiling for a fight.
Can you mop up Lulu, she is bleeding everywhere now she has picked that scab off. The new carpet!
Please sew up this torn coat or we will have that furious mum in again.
etc

Is it every day? Or just sometimes?

Wouldn't it be easier all round to make sure he sits on the toilet soon after eating, just to limit the frequency of accidents?

What happened to kindness, 4 is only a baby anyway.