to keep DS off school until they can look after him properly??

[ASecretLemonadeDrinker]

I am so upset and so angry. DS has soiling problems - waiting for paed. app. afte fruitless GP visits/diet changes. Have had threads in the past (me being called to take DS home, all the time he is sitting on a paper towel in his own shit) and today was the sae. Although, today was "so bad we had to change him" (!??!) but he came home socks covered in shit, dry shit down his les and shorts on so they could definatly see it all! THey had half heartedly changed him thenshoved clean shorts on him and made him wait for me like that. And he missed the last hour or so of school - again. I have talked and talked to them - they said they would remind and "make" him go after lunch (the only luck I have is getting him to try and sometimes we time it right - other than that he has little/no sense of going) - DS tells me they haven't. He jumped was soaked with poo , hands dirty & stunk of poo.... They just handed him over and told me to "gee him up" with toileting.

I can't snd him back, I just can't - my heart breaks when I seeing him sitting on him own in his own poo patiently waiting for me :(

Apocalypse - it takes longer than that to properly clean a child up and with schools already stretched is it really fair to expect them to take on this responsibility when they also have a duty to care for and educate all of the other little ones in their classes. Perhaps they should call the mother to collect the child when he has soiled himself.

That might be a temporary solution.

As a childminder I see this as a fundamental part of caring for a child. Soiling happens! That's life. And parents and carers need to work together in the care of the child.

I have even bathed kids before who have had a really nasty poo accident. They need to be cleaned asap after an accident. Part and parcel of taking care of them. (Naturally I have all permissions in place to do so).

Am shocked. Poor kid :(

Sweat pea ... the solution you have come up with, is what happening, while waiting for his mum, he has been sat on a paper towel, covered in shit, hands, legs, clothes covered in the stuff. Not all mums lives 5 mins from school, so to walk into collect child and see him in this degrading state is the reason the OP is so furious, quite rightly too

I obviously understand schools are more limited (no baths!), but at the very least a thorough clean with wet wipes... surely??? And a change into clean clothes, soiled clothes in a bag for mum?

agreed poopnscoop, to leave a child in that state at home, would be neglict

Pretty - I am entitled to my opinion here as much as the next one. I did NOT say it was acceptable for a child of 4 to sit in his own shit, but I feel that schools are already over-stretched and that perhaps the mother should keep the child at home until his problem is resolved or that she should be called to collect the child.

Personally I would clean the child up....but this is not an idea long term solution and there needs to be some discussion.

Oh it's awful...they're obviously not sympathetic at all....so sorry OP.

IS there any other school you could move him to? This one sounnds AWFUL! They're not looking after him at all....hes' only 4 and somethings not right...it's not like he#s doing it on purpose!

Have you looked at other options? My worry is that the other kids will start to tease...or ostracise him...YANBU at all to keep him away. IN fact I would take him out and look for a new option for year 1 in Sept....a fresh start....you could concentrate on helping him till then...no stresss about school.

he need not legally be there till Spetember anyway!

I'm not a teacher but no way can I see myself SO overstretched that I could not elp a 4 year old like the OPS. How long does it take to wipe a little lad down? Ten mins? The teacher will have a TA to look after th class....HOW is the little thing being allowed to get himself covered in it????

I would keep him off until you see the paed. The school have been negligent imo. When my son poo'ed himself at nursery the teachers cleaned him properly and gave him fresh clothes to wear. The soiled clothes were covered in diarrea (how do you spell it!!) but ds didn't smell at all.

I have a son in Reception and he would notice if another child is covered in poo (he notices boys who have wet patches on their grey school trousers)

Our school has a SN unit and the children with continence problems wear pull ups. I think that wearing pull ups is a far more sensitive way to deal with continence problems than leaving the child smelly and covered in poo.

OH MYYYY....

Welsh - where did I say it's ok for him to sit in shit????

Now as a Newbie....and having read the google comments on bullying by Mumsnetters I am fully prepared for being attacked for having a point of view...but I do wish people would read my comments properly before passing judgement and misinterpreting what I say.

The OP is making arrangements for the long term sweetpea, she is in process of chasing a paed assessment.

Sweetpea, up until a few months ago my nine year old (disabled) nephew was still in nappies.... I have cleaned up enough shit over the years to know it doesn't take that long to make a half decent attempt at it.

And wiping shit off legs takes seconds

God, how awful for your little boy. My dd is also 4, although not yet in school. She has had real problems with soiling resulting from chronic constipation a year ago. She takes daily laxatives and has only very recently (last 2 weeks) got back to fully recognising when she needs to go. We've got there through some straightforward bribery (she has a bag of prizes to choose from for every poo on the toilet!), and it's worked at last. She starts school in September and am so glad we're getting it resolved first. I think your sons school will be making the issue worse for him. Shaming him by leaving him smelly and dirty, excluding him from class; it must feel like punishment and is wrong. Dd would not wear pull ups when she started having accidents, but could be worth a try?
I second those who've said get support from doctor (is there a school nurse?) and class teacher first, get the school involved in whatever plan is put in place to help him. And be reassured that soiling isn't even considered a developmental problem until a child is 7.

Was typing whilst you posted your " I did NOT say it was acceptable for a child of 4 to sit in his own shit"
Do not think anyone is bullying any one, poster are making it clear they think this is not acceptable behaviour for OP DS
If you disagree with someones post sweetpea, the beauty of AIBU, is other posters are within their rights to question your opinion

I think the problem is that without a diagnosis and a 'extra needs' problem there isnt the funding to employ a TA willing to deal with children that soil,an occasional incident from a bug may be ok but a child that is persitently soiling needs care that clearly has to come from somewhere if the Ta is employed to assist the teacher the 10-15 mins it takes to deal with your ds takes her support away from the teacher and the other children,also as MMJ suggests the facilities might simply not be available.

I went for an interview at a primary school and was asked how I would cope with soiling incidents and when I said Id seen everything there was to see and would always clean a child up they told me several applicants had said it wasnt in the job description.

Im not saying school is right, far from it .....but until you get something 'official' you cant force the issue as upsetting as I know it is for you and your poor ds.

Good grief, how incredibly cruel! I would be writing to the head, the chair of governors, the LEA, Ofsted, my MP, the press if I could keep names out of it and whoever else would listen.

My mum teaches 4 year olds at a mainstream school and the support staff definitely do change nappies and clear up accidents. The school much look after a child properly.

could well be constipation - feel his tummy/bowel, any hardness? he needs to see a gastro. he needs an xray tos ee if he had impacted faeces ie severe constipation. and yes it does mean overflow diarrhoea goinf round it and lots of poos . but you could also ask GP to properly feel his tummy bowel. then if yes - ask GP to repscribe chidlrens laxative to doa good clear out - then you would need ongoing management with movicol or lactulose.

start him on probiotics daily - if he doesnt like actimel/yakult then get biocare probiotics powder (ask health shop - usually stored in the fridge comes in a childrens version strawberry or banana flavour - about £14 a bottle but it lasts for couple months on daily dose) and mix half teaspoon in juice or milk. it really helped my son's constipation/stomach issues .

cleanign at school - change of clothes sent in and ask if they want you to ptovide wipes etc. jsut needs some communciaiton going on,

also ask GP tporefer to lcoalc ommunicty continence nurse who can go into scool and advise on eg how many times to sit him on toilet.

talk to ERIC as well

www.eric.org.uk/ they may ahve ideas on working with school on this
"About 1 in 12 children and young people in the UK struggle with bedwetting, daytime wetting, constipation and soiling (sometimes called incontinence or continence problems). At ERIC, we know how worrying and stressful these difficulties can be."

Oh, and it certainly isn't only SN children who they clean up/change.

Your poor boy

It really does sound like constipation, I have had 2 Ds's suffer. One is now in his teens and it was sorted years and years ago. One is 6 and getting there.

With the second one it's been a lot harder. Firstly we found he had some allergies which we think were causing constipation. We took these things out of his diet which did improve things a little, but he then began witholding poo because he had learnt that it hurt to go to the toilet. This in turn caused him to be constipated again.

With the constipation, runny poo does still leak out around the blockage, which can make you think they are not constipated. Also, because of the constipation, they cannot feel the sensation of needing to go. I have heard it can take as long as they have had the problem for the sensation to return, so it can be a long hard slog i'm afraid.

With our DS we are pretty sure he is no longer constipated so it's just a matter of retraining. It has become very much psychological, but he has also told us he doesn't always know when he needs to go.

So we now have a chart. On it there is a sticker each day for the following:
trying after each meal
Following any signs of needing a poo - such as wind or tummy ache
Having a poo on the toilet
Having clean pants at the end of the day
Going to the toilet without being reminded.

If he has a poo, clean pants and is not reminded in a day, then he gets a coin. He then has a piece of paper where we write a toy he wants. Each time he gets a coin, he can colour one letter in. When all the letters are coloured in, he can buy the toy with the money from the pot (you may have to write a long sentence with the name of the toy in to make sure the amount of money is correct!)

There is NO punishment or anything for a bad day, he just does not get his coin.

Something else we did, which may be controversial, is one day after his pants were a bit messy, we got him to smell the trousers he had been wearing (they were not messy at all). We wanted him to realise what his classmates would smell. This was not a proper poo in pants, just hanging on cos he didn't want to go. It seems that they really don't notice the smell at the time, but after this he said he didn't want to be smelly any more.

He is doing really fantastically and hasn't had dirty pants in ages

With regard to the school, I think it's appalling, although I believe very common. My other DS, who has never had this problem, one day had terrible runs at school and didn't make it to the toilet in time (he was in reception). When I picked him up the TA apologised profusely that he had not been cleaned, but he wouldn't let them. So all they could do was give him wipes and clean clothes for him to try himself. Obviously he was in a right state, but they would have done it if needed.

I can also see though that it is very difficult to keep changing a child, but I personally could not leave a child in that state.

Maybe this week you could try giving him lactulose (I am amazed the GP hasn't given it) and even start a chart to see if that can help. He probably has lost the sensation telling him he needs to go and needs to retrain his body. But for now if he tries lots of times, he may catch it at the right time and give him some confidence.

Have you tried the school nurse? Ours was helpful with DS1

I am astounded that teachers/TAs would have an issue with cleaning him up tbh. Of course they'd be keen to get it sorted out for everyones sake, and I could understand them having concerns about how it will be resolved, but not to e extent of excluding him and leaving him dirty.

If you have a real issue with shitty pants, perhaps question whether working with 4 year olds is your true calling?! And for those suggesting that teachers and TAs are sooooo stretched that they can't take 5 minutes to help him get cleaned up, that's nonsense (and yes, I DO work in schools).

AKMD, great to hear that there are teachers, who are dealing with this issue more humanely than OP school teachers have been dealing with it

Second welshbyrds comments about other schools being more humane. I would be horrified to see my son treated like this and I think the suggestion of calling the LEA is a good one. Also most schools have a "parent support worker" who can liaise with the school and a board of governors you can complain too. Feel free to make a fuss, I would.

the problem is there is only so much schools are allowed to do the school nursery where my son attends told all parents that the children would need to wipe their own bottoms as they could nt do it themselves although ds is fully toilet trained he did have one accident before xmas and they had changed his trousers and underpants so they obviously had helped him they also have a couple of children with special needs and i know they assist them but i,m not sure they are legally allowed to.

Oh for pitys sake... Of course they're legally allowed to. Twaddle.