to keep DS off school until they can look after him properly??

[ASecretLemonadeDrinker]

I am so upset and so angry. DS has soiling problems - waiting for paed. app. afte fruitless GP visits/diet changes. Have had threads in the past (me being called to take DS home, all the time he is sitting on a paper towel in his own shit) and today was the sae. Although, today was "so bad we had to change him" (!??!) but he came home socks covered in shit, dry shit down his les and shorts on so they could definatly see it all! THey had half heartedly changed him thenshoved clean shorts on him and made him wait for me like that. And he missed the last hour or so of school - again. I have talked and talked to them - they said they would remind and "make" him go after lunch (the only luck I have is getting him to try and sometimes we time it right - other than that he has little/no sense of going) - DS tells me they haven't. He jumped was soaked with poo , hands dirty & stunk of poo.... They just handed him over and told me to "gee him up" with toileting.

I can't snd him back, I just can't - my heart breaks when I seeing him sitting on him own in his own poo patiently waiting for me :(

I realise that this is hard for youy but I think you are being unfair here. If it is a medical issue and he has no control then you need to be putting him in some kind of incontinence pants.

Its all very well saying the school should have facilities but he sounds like he needs a full shower not just a quick change.

"Is the school obliged if there are no sn and no dx?"

In a word, yes- this falls under the school's duty of care. Schools are legally required to act as a reasonably prudent parent.

Teachers cannot be compelled to change children after toileting accidents; but support staff can. If the teacher notices that the child has had an accident, they must inform a member of support staff who must change them. However, if a teacher notices that the child has had an accident and does nothing, then they are deemed to be negligent having failed in their duty of care.

Although the legislation is complicated, the upshot is that a child should never be left to sit in his own excrement. The school need taking to task on this, and I share Birds' concerns about removing your DS from school and absolving them of their legal responsibilities towards him.

Again, the DDA does not apply until you have a dx of a medical condition.

Panzee I appreciate what you are saying but surely most people with any common sense can help a soiled little boy change without training - I after all have raised two children without the need for an education in wiping their bottoms. I know it isnt your fault but the immense and ridiculous legislation teachers face is ludicrous. If you take children to school under five schools must accept that they will on occasion have to help a child clear themselves up. Leaving a four year old boy out of class for an hour in his own shit is frankly appalling and no amount of rules would stop me giving the poor child a proper clean up.

OP do you send him in with a changing bag? Perhaps if you send in wipes, maybe some hand soap and a little towel plus spare clothes in the event of an accident, and if it is possible go in at lunch to take him to the toilet, as an interim measure this will help?

OP, I would make an appointment with the head and the class teacher to discuss this situation. I worked in a Reception Class for 8 years as a TA and would clean children up after a soiling accident, but it did require there to be 2 staff present, so the Ta from next door would often come through or a member of the office staff. We didn't have proper washing facilities so I used to make sure I had baby wipes handy, but they were provided by me. Maybe you could discuss the possibility of providing the necessary things for them to clean your child up, such as baby wipes, gloves, fresh clothes, nappy sacks for soiled pants ect which would enable them to clean your child up better but it may be that in severe cases you may have to pick him up as they may not have the facilities to clean him up properly as such, but should do all they can to protect him from embarassment.

Poor son
Im very close to tears at the thought of him waiting for you to turn up, covered in poo.
Im not sure where the school stand with this, perhaps you could contact your local county council education dept

There doesn have to be a diagnosis, just ecidence that this is caused by a physical or mental impairment, which I would have the GP could confirm.

Good point, balls- that's what I was thinking a dx would be; not necessarily a named medical condition, but confirmation from a doctor that it is caused by an impairment.

Your poor little boy. My heart goes out to him.

In your position, I would not send him into school tomorrow or any other day, until I found a place for him where proper washing facilities and caring staff were available. I'd go to prison rather than force him to carry on in his current place.

I am sure the school has its own difficulties, but I don't think they are going to be sorted out overnight.

I just can't begin to imagine the social damage being done by forcing him to sit in his own excrement, alongside other children (and five year olds do make judgements on other children depending on how they smell).

I do hope the medical problem is easily sorted out, and that he can make a fresh start when his body is working a little more predictably. Until then, he should be with people who love him, care for him and understand him, not being made a spectacle of in his school.

I think there are several things here; firstly the school need to be doing more than just reminding him to go after lunch. They should definitely be taking him to the loo more often than this. I would also agree that providing school with plenty of clean clothes, wipes etc would be good. I also think you should get the school nursing team involved. They need to draw up and agree a care plan with the school which will specify who will clean up your ds and where etc. They definitely have a duty of care to your ds in this respect and perhaps a meeting with the school nurse will make this clear to them.

My own ds had soiling issues. They lasted for a few years (sorry!) but are thankfully resolved now. He never received a formal dx, although we think it may be related to his dyspraxia (not severe enough for anything useful like a statement).

Throughout, his teachers never treated him (nor I) with anything other than kindness. He certainly wasn't left to sit in shit like that. Absolutely not.

I am and on your and your ds's behalf, Lemonade

I would be looking for another school and keeping him home in the meantime, if feasible.

PS If it's any consolation, ds was never picked on by the other children for having accidents.

Just a thought, as we had a similar problem with DS around 4-it was actually chronic constipation. I know this sounds weird as poo still coming out, but that was overflow really, and the real problem was the constipation and a huge poo, and lack of sensation of needing a poo. Needed lots of laxatives, micro enemas etc. Once things cleared, then had to focus on not getting constipated again and then retraining rectum (once stretched with a big poo becomes floppy, unable to squeeze, and does not have the normal sensation of being full IYSWIM). Was on combination of different laxatives for around 9 months, then came off slowly. Some children can be on them for much longer though. He's fine now though-just turned 5, but we're constantly on our guard! Please feel free to PM me if needed.

Oh your poor boy - how horrible

As someone said upthread you don't have to start until the term before 5th birthday. I kept my ds out of full time nursery for an unrelated reason. I'd keep him at home if at all practical.

And happymum is right about the constipation - even though the child is pooing they can still be constipated ( weird as it sounds!)

Like happymn DD1 has issues with chronic constpation and soiling/ wetting, when she is suffering constipation (not always obvious to us as she does continue to poo small amounts).

Her school has been nothing but kind and caring. She has her own supply of pants in her PE bag and the TA's will help her change and clean herself. She can go for weeks even months without problems then 1 to 2 weeks of what feels like almost every day (not always at school tho').

DD now sees a member of the community peadiatric continence team who are great and VERY understanding.

I think a meeting with the head making refernce to the links above would be the way to go. THEY should be doing more.

Bless his heart. YANBU

I'd keep him off school for as long as I could, although if you are in England and he is turning five in March that means that legally he'd have to start school after the Easter holidays, in about a months time.

It does sound like constipation, I've heard that if the bowel is impacted poos are forced around the obstruction with and the sufferer doesn't get the feeling of needing to go, so are taken unawares. The way you describe the state he is in does't sound like a normal 'solid' poo.

The changing at school is a problem. I can see it from their side too as more than one staff member would need to be present. I would be uncomfortable doing this acutally if I were a TA, if it involved intimate cleaning, rather than just quickly wiping a bum IYKWIM. Again I'd second taking in a bag of supplies of wipes, plastic bags and spare clothes. That really is a necessity and would prevent him left sitting on a paper towel with no pants to wear which is totally unacceptable.

If you do send him back to school I'd send him in some pull-ups or similar, or ask the school to call you immediately he has an accident and you could come in the change him yourself.

Really hope you can get your paed referral ASAP or can speak to a community incontinence nurse - your GP can refer you for this and even by speaking to an expert over the phone they could tell you some things to try to soften his poos and get some regularity going. Have you tried lactulose?

I come across this from time to time doing supply - am informed which children I need to remind to go to the loo frquently and keep an eye on. TAs change the children and are really nice about it. I've only been there when it's been in the pants rather than runny and everywhere. Most children who wet/soil have a changing bag, and there are spare clothes around anyway. I know some teachers who buy economy bags of Tesco knickers themselves just in case.

I occasionally have a class with one TA and a SN child who needs full attention, or very occasionally just me and a parent helper. In that situation it would certainly be hard to find someone to deal with a child. There definitely needs to be a plan.

I know at pre-school there had to be 2 staff there (child protection) for changing a child. I don't see it as part of my role, but as a mum your poor little boy obviously can't sit in poo.

I wouldn't want my child at school without a plan, but would feel responsible myself and would pop in at break/lunch for a few weeks and try to get a routine going that worked then work with the school to implement the timing.

Well, he's at home. DH calld the school at 3 on Friday to say he wouldn't be in all next week (this week) and why, and has tried t get hold of head this morning but apart from that nothing has happeed. They obviously aren't bothered! Chasing up the paed. referral. If I hear nothing today I think I'll have to write a letter (to school) outlinng all incidents and why he is not there.

Have not tried lactulose or anything like that - I am not sure it's constipation because he goes a least twice a day (fully), but apart from that it does sound like it - little dribbles of liquidcoming out etc.

Before he started they assured us it was fine and they would change him and they keep spare clothes, hence why I don't send in spares (sometimes he goes a week or two or more no accident) and he has his P.E kit anyway. They changed him at the beginning of the school year (I'd ge home bags of his dirty clothes and sometimes he would be very very bady cleaned up - I mean he looked like he'd been in a mud bath and it has dried yet his clothes/pants were not clean. Now they send him home.

The school sounds beyond awful.....good for you for keeping him home

Don't discount constipation btw, my ds has had trouble for years and gets a liquid overspill which he can't control, it's very distressing for him as his tummy is often hard and swollen.

He has liquid movicol prescribed which he doesn't really take as we have found it's best controlled by diet. We're getting there with time

Thinking of you Lemonade.

I am horrified by the way the school has treated your DS and really hope it is sorted soon.

I understand that the school may be limited in what they have the resources to do but equally they should do EVERYTHING possible to minimise hurt and humiliation for your DS.

Good luck!

I was also wondering how old he is.

It seems that he does have special needs...and I'm wondering if it's reasonable to expect the school to monitor his toileting and to change him when he has accidents with all the other responsibilities that they have to do. I'm not sure it's fair to blame the school.

I think that other options need considering until his problems are resolved...such as keeping him at home and teaching him yourself for the time being (until his problems are resolved).

I don't know the ins and outs of how this kind of situation is dealt with, or what the guidelines are. However, my instincts say that there is no way a little child should be left in this kind of state, even for the time it would take for him to be collected. It's humiliating and wrong.

Sweetpea....it takes mere seconds to wipe shit off a childs legs.

Also, YANBU to keep him home until something is sorted out OP. I would do exactly the same. I hope something gets sorted out asap.

sweetpea sorry but I think that is total rubbish. A school is expected to act in loco parentis - this child is four years old for gods sake, which for boys in particular is often only a year or so out of nappies, and should not be left to sit in excrement for hours at a time. Disgraceful frankly.