To expect this doctor to be in some trouble!!

[stoppinchingthedummy]

Evening ...I wont make this too long!

I went to the doctors earlier today with my DS. He has never slept a night through since he was born. He is now almost 5 and its come to breaking point. None of us are getting enough rest and it is seriously affecting his behaviour and concentration!!
Now im pretty he doesnt have ADHD as some people seem all to keen to label him with however i do need some proffesional advice on how to make him sleep.

Please dont anyone say "Just leave him scream" etc etc ..We have a 2 yr old DD who sleeps really well and if he screams he disturbs her!

Ok so long story short got to the doctors and he started with "So he has conjunctivitis,yes this is common in children blah blah" I replied "no thats not why im here im here for some proffesional advice on how to get him sleeping through the night as he has sleep problems" He then got a bit angry and said i should speak to my h/v. I told him they dont want to know now he is at school. So he then banged his hands loudly on the table,grabbed his hair and gritted his teeth!!! He was really angry!! He was shouting that he is a gp and its not his problem and why am i there!! He made me feel like a complete waste of space then said "ill refer him but now YOUR making it medical and i dont like it" so i left!!

Im so so angry but more than that im upset :( it has taken me weeks to make this appointment because im so terrified they will try to label him :( i just want him to be able to sleep so we can at least know if its the lack of sleep that makes his behaviour bad at times :(

AIBU to complain tomorrow and expect the doctor to apologise to me in person??

It's such a long post and don't have time to read all of it sorry. Has a cd already been suggested - classical soothing music on replay?

I had similar issues with DC1 tbh - it took me being very strict about it - not shouting but being very persistent I did find the tape worked too though. I can't believe anyone would lock a child in a room it would just store up phobias and anxiety for a lifetime I would have thought.

One other thing I tried was being busy outside her room. If you have the space, what about doing the ironing outside her room so that she can hear that you are there? Or sit outside her room and tap away on mumsnet with a couple of cushions to make yourself comfortable?

I suspect that what's stressing him out is that he knows that you're waiting for him to fall asleep and that he knows when he falls asleep you will leave the room/walk away from the door and go downstairs. This is counterproductive as it's making him not want to go to sleep and stay awake as long as possible just so that you don't leave him.

2 of my other DCs who share a room had a spell where they wanted the door open so that they could hear the noise from downstairs. When they wanted me to stay in the room I'd say "I'm just next door in my bedroom folding the clothes away and then I'm going to watch TV in my bedroom, and I would leave their door open a bit and my door open a bit.

It just reassured them becasue for a while they were anxious about being upstairs on their own.

I hope you do get some useful advice here.
Personally I wouldn't make another appointment to see the doctor because tbh then you'll have wasted the time of two doctors, and two appointments that could have gone to parents whose DCs are ill and need to see a doctor.

I think MN is the best place for things like this!

Good luck with it all. If you stick to your guns you'll have it sorted in a couple of weeks.

Ok GP was an arse and def deserves a letter.
Have you spoken to school nurse?? This is the person to see after age of 5 instead of HV.
We never sleep in this house either :( Trust me they wouldnt just label him, getting a diagnosis takes months/years so dont panic.
With DD1 has autism she never knew what time it was when she woke so would get up. However we brought a plug timer and some rope lights. We wrapped lights around the end of her bed and set the timer. If she woke before 7am the lights would still be on and she would know to stay in bed and go back to sleep. It worked wonders.
As for DD2 we tried sleep training, but she also has Autism and screams for hours and my girls share a room. We have just resigned ourselfs that sleep is something other people talk about
good luck.

stoppinching - poor you! Two issues here - your GP - unbelievalbe ! but I wont go there... and your son's sleeping.

I have 3 who all had sleep problems - they're all teenagers now but would it help to know what we did?

Eldest didnt sleep through til he was 4: middle is two years younger and stopped sleeping through when she was ill at age 2 - by which time number 3 was on the way. number 3 didnt sleep through til she was 5 - so we have maybe 4 or 5 unbroken nights sleep in 10 years. (And I'm still here to tell the tale!)

My number 3 sounds like your son - couldnt settle on her own and if she woke up in a room alone she was desolate and I didnt want the others waking with her screaming. She could climb out of her cot at 15 months so it wasnt really safe to leave her, I didnt think.

So we put a double bed in her room (it was effecteivley the guest room anyway) and I'd settle her to sleep by lying down with her til seh dropped off. Then when she woke up in the night and called for me I'd get out of our bed and go and sleep next to her in her bed.

I have never understood why she was so unhappy to sleep on her own, but, she was. Once we accepted that fact and rearranged our lives, we were happier. (She was also very unhappy being left at a creche or at nursery. And even in reception class now I come to think of it.)

Admittedly, you spend less time with your DH but as she didnt usually wake till midnight or so there was at least some time together! Evenings out were impossible and overnights even more so, but that was what worked ofr us.

I'm not suggesting that is your solution, I'm just saying that's how we worked it out for us

"There are two schools of thought on children, they are either genuine in their needs and required night time parents OR they are deceitful manipulative children who do not require any night time parenting. "

I really don't agree with this. I think I know my son well enough to know when he genuinely needs us in the night (as he did the other night when he had a nose bleed, or a couple of weeks ago when he had a nightmare - both times I went to him, fixed the problem and cuddled him to sleep again) and when he's just not sleepy and a bit bored - which isn't nice but is something you have to learn to deal with without waking the rest of the household. He went through that phase a little while ago!

I'd also take issue with people talking about "controlled crying" and "sleep training" - this is a 5 year old, I don't think either of those can apply!

Do agree with letting them share a room - we recently put DD in bed with DS (she was about 15 months) and while it didn't magically make her sleep through the night they both love it and they both sleep well together. In fact the other night DS was plsying up because he didn't want to go to sleep, and it was solved when DH put DD to bed :)

Stealth - Do you think they can't apply because he's too old for that at 5 years old?

If that's your point I'd just say that from experience it can work - all it takes is for the parents to put it in place and make it work, and of course to put up with the consequences of other DCs maybe being disturbed until it does work.

OP, what about resloving to do this over the Easter holidays when DS isn't in school and you might just be able to reap the benfits of him sleeping in a little later in the mornings too. You'll be less stressed then I expect because you won't have to contend with the mad morning rush to school on no sleep. That's what I'd do.

Also then, if your DD needed to she could have a nap in the afternoons without you having to wake her up to go and get your son from school?

It would give you time to prepare yourself mentally, make a start chart.

Also can I go against the grain - getting the DCs to share a room seems pointless to me and you'll only have to undo it an a few years time and split them up agian.

Sort it out once and for all imo, and leave them in ther own rooms. He's less likely to wake your DD if she's in another room, surely?

Op

YANBU to be fed up with the doctor and to complain.
However, I think the only thing the dr could do would be to refer you to a sleep clinic

this one www.mill-pond.co.uk/ is supposed to be one of the best.

You could contact them yourself and see what you need to do to get a referall to there or somewhere nearer to you.

However, it does seem like your child is just in the habit of getting into bed with you and that its a case of breaking the habit. The only people who can do that are you and your dh. Yes you will be tired the next day - but it sounds like you are tired anyway. Could you get someone else to come and help you the following day (family) or take some holiday from work to do it?

Its not easy breaking bad habits but this does seem the only way.

good luck

I don't think you can complain to your GP that you didn't sleep train your child. I also don't think it's fair you took an appointment to demand answers as to how to put a 5 year old to bed.

His behaviour was irrational, but you might've been the 10th time waster of the day and he. No excuse-and I'd complain about him.

Until then, lose yourself on the internet and read up how to sleep train him.

OP
Your doc was unreasonable.

I can only advise you to start a new thread in parenting or sleep and ask for advice on the sleeping issue.

Put in all the details, how you put him to bed, what happens then, when he wakens in the night - everything.

There are lots of people on MN who can give you advice, but it is getting lost in the issue with the doc.

I think that some posters have been too harsh on you. While it sounds like the problem is behavioural, sleep problems and sn often go hand in hand and is dealt by medical means like melatonin. I don't understand the argument that a gp doesn't deal with behavioural problems. If I was worried about the behaviour of an adult or child then a GP would be my port of call. I'd expect a referral to a dietician for food issues, a referral to a paed or sleep clinic for sleep issues... Sleep clinics do deal with sleep related behaviour too.

There are kinder ways than barricading the door. Have you considered a mattress on the floor of your room or one parent co-sleeping with him and the other in s different bed? My 8 year old sleeps in her own room and makes excuses to get into our bed. I try to take her back to her room and stroke her hair until she falls asleep but sometimes I can.'t say no and let her in. She sleeps through if someone else I'd in the room so sharing a room would help but we don't have a room big enough for her to share with her brothers. Over the years, she has collected enough cuddly toys that her bedroom is like a zoo so in theory she has lots of company and I think that they help. I remember being a child and lying in bed feeling lonely and anxious - I wonder if I've passed it on to her? She needs much less sleep than her brothers. She dropped daytime sleeps at 15 months and was doing 8 hours a night with no effect on her behaviour so I try to be patient with her.

I've been to the gp many times to be told that there's nothing wrong, give calpol and lots of fluids. I've never been yelled at despite the fact that I probably didn't need the gp every time. When explaining problems to a gp I've probably given information that is not needed for a diagnosis either. I've never been yelled at for doing this. The GP was way out of line for treating you this way. Everyone has crappy days but it's unacceptable to take it out on others. I wonder if the GP's knowledge about this topic is not so strong?

Op- you mention that you are scared of a label for your son but have you considered the fact that a label might open the doors to services that you need ??

Oh poor you. You sound at the end of your tether so the last thing you need is to come on here and feel as if we're getting at you.

Firstly, I do think the GP was unprofessional in his response to you and you should report him.

Secondly, the sleep issue. I have a perfect 5 year old: am in fact polishing his halo as I type. He too potters into our bed in the night. This wakes both me and my husband. My husband works so really dislikes this whereas, because I don't work, I don't mind it too much and so I let it go.

Obviously you've tried different things to help your son but I'm not sure if you were committed to the whole idea of getting him to sleep in his own bed. Lots of what your child says to you is manipulative. I don't mean this in a harsh way: what I mean is that he obviously wants to sleep in your bed with you and will say whatever he can to achieve that aim. My own son has tried similar tactics. Sometimes he wakes us up in the night saying he's scared of volcanoes/ has bad dreams/ wants to plan his birthday party (8 months away!). I know all of these are excuses yet at the time they feel very real to him.

I think you need to do this gently for your own sake. As someone has suggested, allow him to sleep on a mattress in your room for a specific length of time eg 1 month. Then maybe move mattress outside your bedroom for eg 1 month.

Next insist he sleeps in his own bed from then on. Maybe buy some nice bedding and some new pyjamas. Use sticker charts. At the end of a good week reward with a cheapish toy. Talk all the time about what a big boy he is and how good it is that he's sleeping in his own room.

Ultimately your job as a mum is to give your kids a nest to live in and wings to fly. You've given him a nest now you gradually need to give him those wings.

You are a caring mother. Just take small steps and within 3 months or so you should have cracked this without too much trauma on either side.

Sending you lots of cyber support.

Misfit, I mean I woulodn't call it controlled crying - I think that is labelling what is essentially just telling a child to go to bed

Controlled crying isn't telling a child to go to bed. That's effectively self soothing.

Control crying is usually for babies not children, where you time between crying periods, to go up and sooth, the point being each time, the crying period is less and less. I didn't do it so I don't know how useful it is, I did do self soothing and that was spot on after night number 2.

Hi all,thanks for the rest of the replies :) For anyone who has asked (sorry i can't remember all the names) His beahviour varies

Poor concentration -usually after a bad night

He is a very busy boy always on the go- he has always been like this ,he walked at 8 months and just hasnt stopped since!!

He is very restless even when asleep- foot tapping,crying out etc

But he can behave!! He has been with family today and has been so good apparently all day yet when dp turned up to pick him up he was being naughtey again the family member said she couldnt believe the difference in how he has been all day and how he changed!!

For the poster who said others had labelled him adhd - no one who has said it is a proffesional just pop out with "ooh do you think maybe he is adhd"

I would not stop a medical diagnosis if a proffesional looks into it more and tells me it is however i feel its all too easy for some people to label others with things they may not have - just my opinion.

Thank you again for everyone who replied last night and today. I feel much more positive about the sleep training and im going to see another gp on monday on my own :)

That doesn't sound much like ADHD (in my meagre vaguely informed opinion). ADHD kids are more... consistent in their difficult behaviour.

Good luck with it all stoppin - you sound much more positive. I'm sure you'll have it sorted in no time

My dsis inlaw ds woke in the night screaming.Turned out that he suffered night terrors.They had to do things to tire his brain rather than his body.My dp said he was like it for years.Not saying it's what your ds has. They had to see a sleep therapist I think

exaxctly my point LOTM - I would argue you can't (by virtue of their age) do CC with a 5 yo. You can tell them firmly to go to bed, or not.

Most kids are naughty when their parents turn up to collect them, mine always is and his mates always are. It is pretty standard kid stuff.

Whatever you went to see the GP for he should not have behaved in that way. There is no excuse for a healthcare professional to behave in that way be they Dr, professor whatever, no-one has the right to speak to you that way. Complain.Complain. Complain and move GP's.

I've read some of this thread - not all admittedly but it sounds to me like your DS's behaviour is being facilitated by you OP. But that is not the focus of your post.

Yor GP should not have reacted this way - but how has he reacted previously to you? Do you visit the GP a lot or not? I would temper my response by thinking how he usually behaved during a consultation.

If I normally had a good relationship with the GP, and he/she the reacted like yours did I would, of course, be non-plussed. But if the relationship was usually good I would consider very carefully before putting in a formal complaint. Just my thoughts.

Everyone has off days - even GPs. They are human and have domestic issues just like the rest of us. Of course they should leave that at home but how many of us can say, hand on heart, that we have never allowed a personal issue to influence our behaviour at work?

Apologies if this has already been said but I read a few pages earlier then got sidetracked so have not read it all.

Ragged this is what i have been saying to people - in my experience of adhd (which i admit isnt much) the behaviour is consistent and cannot be turned on and off.

He is hyper but this tends to have triggers..Sugary things (anything at all not just the obvious sweets etc) and bad sleep the previous night!!

We didnt have him home last night he had a night with grandparents and i felt at a complete loss and a little like id failed him (mainly because it was seen to be they had him to give us a rest) I have decided he is only little for a short time and we will put a bed at the bottom of ours for when he wakes up frightened- this might be wrong in some other peoples opinions but he wont be sleeping in our bed when he is a teen (i hope) and in the mean time i dont want my children to feel abandoned at any part of their little lives.

:)

Oh and salmontrutta we see different gp's everytime because its rare to see the same one but after thinking about it he has been nice to me in the past and usually helpful. He has been poorly in the past and after thinking about it perhaps he has something re occuring.