To expect this doctor to be in some trouble!!

[stoppinchingthedummy]

Evening ...I wont make this too long!

I went to the doctors earlier today with my DS. He has never slept a night through since he was born. He is now almost 5 and its come to breaking point. None of us are getting enough rest and it is seriously affecting his behaviour and concentration!!
Now im pretty he doesnt have ADHD as some people seem all to keen to label him with however i do need some proffesional advice on how to make him sleep.

Please dont anyone say "Just leave him scream" etc etc ..We have a 2 yr old DD who sleeps really well and if he screams he disturbs her!

Ok so long story short got to the doctors and he started with "So he has conjunctivitis,yes this is common in children blah blah" I replied "no thats not why im here im here for some proffesional advice on how to get him sleeping through the night as he has sleep problems" He then got a bit angry and said i should speak to my h/v. I told him they dont want to know now he is at school. So he then banged his hands loudly on the table,grabbed his hair and gritted his teeth!!! He was really angry!! He was shouting that he is a gp and its not his problem and why am i there!! He made me feel like a complete waste of space then said "ill refer him but now YOUR making it medical and i dont like it" so i left!!

Im so so angry but more than that im upset :( it has taken me weeks to make this appointment because im so terrified they will try to label him :( i just want him to be able to sleep so we can at least know if its the lack of sleep that makes his behaviour bad at times :(

AIBU to complain tomorrow and expect the doctor to apologise to me in person??

I don't think bad sleepers are made by parents, some children just don't sleep. My best sleeper is our third child, the one who has zero routine, co-sleeps with us from day one and started sleeping through the night at three weeks old. Nothing we did, she is just a very good 'bomb proof' sleeper.

Compare that to my so so but now settled DD1 who slept through at 20 months and DS who still wakes up a couple times a night at 2.5 years old....pass me the match sticks.

Welllll, I don't think there is any excuse for a GP to get cross with you but then I'm not sure what you were expecting from him really.

It sounds entirely like a parenting issue and not a health issue. Your HV is wrong to not put you in touch with the School Health team (who take over from HVs when your child starts school). All schools have access to School Health even if not in the school (few are) and you can self refer. The school can give you the number.

I do sympathise with the total exhaustion (I haven't had a good nights sleep for over 7 years, and I work and have 3 children and a husband away at sea) but unless you are willing to commit to some sort of sleep training involving behavioural change (yours and his) you're on a road to nowhere.

Parenting is bloody hard work and so much harder when you're tired. Hence why it's so important to make an effort to improve the nighttimes for all of you.

Babies istent that true. I swear my dd 3.11 does not require much sleep, 8 hours instead of 11 hours, and is a light sleeper. Call her contraceptive girl . Like adults, children vary in their sleep too, so yes its unfair to try and make all children the same. Though as adults we are able to deal with it, and use different coping techniques when we cant get to sleep

Maybe the GP was annoyed that you seem more concerned about your own lack of sleep and couldn't give a stuff about your child's conjunctivitis (which can in rare cases have very serious complications)

Oh and HVs support families with pre-school children (you have a 2 yo)not just pre-school children

stoppinching, I've only read the first and last page of this thread, so apologies if I am repeating stuff, but I must also go to bed as He Who Must Be Obeyed aka DS4 will need his needs met overnight :

Of course drs can and do apologise in person (I know I have on occasion).

Your DS being referred is A Good Think IMO - where to? Paeds? That is a good starting point although a behavioural/developmental unit would be even better, but often can only be accessed via paeds ("tertiary referral").

5 years is quite old to not be sleeping through and I think him being assessed now is important. I can only imagine how shattered you all must be.

I think that how easily DC sleep through is genetic/personality bound, but sleep can be encouraged (not forced though!) or comprehensively screwed up. Once the whole behaviour/routine side of thing has been looked at, might melatonin be an option?? It seems to be used here (Scotland) for some of the kids with a diagnosis of ASD or ADHD... Not my area of expertise...

Also, do you have a local Community Paediatric Clinic? I have attended a Sleep Clinic with DS4 which was very interesting and a bit helpful.

OP you said, "it has taken me weeks to make this appointment because im so terrified they will try to label him i just want him to be able to sleep so we can at least know if its the lack of sleep that makes his behaviour bad at times"

IF there is an underlying medical condition which is responsible for his behaviour and sleeplessness do you not want to know about it then? Surely a "label" isn't bad in itself if it is an explanation which you can them move on from? In order to help your son.

If you have shied away from diagnostic testing for your DS in the past and just want help with the sleep then I could understand your GP's frustration.

I'm so sorry your GP behaved in this appalling manner :( As a health professional if I behaved in that way I would be fired.

Unprofessional, unhelpful, not needed.

He could have missed something really important that you were trying to tell him.

Doctors are there to listen and advise, not rant and be abusive. Yes, complain, and see a different GP if necessary.

WRT it not being a 'medical issue' - well, it could be and GPs are the gateway to other health services so if you were desperate then he is a logical port of call.

I agree with Notanumber - it sounds to me like this is about more than his sleep problems. While normally it would be inappropriate to consult a GP on such an issue, you obviously have concerns about his behaviour and that is most definitely in the GP's domain. Perhaps if he had listened to you a little longer he would have discovered this so, yes, on more than one level he was unreasonable.

You sound like you want to separate out whether his behaviour is as a result of his sleeping problems so if I were you I would definitely go ahead with the referral and try some sleep training also. If the referral is to the 'family team' then it might also be a good place to raise the concerns about his behaviour (child and family health teams are normally made up of HVs and community nurses so if this is where he has referred you I don't understand his comment about making it medical). Hopefully you'll get a more listening ear!

If they give you A magic cure can you pass it on DS3 is almost 4 and wakes 3-4 times a night! x

Is there a 'Sleep Clinic' in yr area? If so how can you be referred?

Complain about yr GP if you want - tho' maybe better to see another GP in the practice or change yr GP.

ADHD and sleep problems often go hand in hand. DS2 barely sleeps past 4am.

Just throw that one into the mix...

Op I havent read past page 4 and its late so I wont but 3 things

1 YANBU about the gp he behaved unprofessionally I would write a complaint..

2 can your bedroom cope with another bed by the foot of yours and dhs? that may resolve your problem ds can come in be close to the two of you but not actually in with you.

3 Sleep clinics will involve things to follow through at home that will = a short time disruption for your younger dd if that is a problem the sleep clinic really isnt the way forward then see point 2.

I'm actually pretty appalled at your GP!

OK, so I guess it isn't his area of expertise- surely he could state that without aggression/ dramatics. Would it kill him to listen to you? If you have gone to the trouble to make an appointment, then the problem is important to you, and he should be able to listen and try to direct you (nicely!) to someone better qualified to help you- no need for the dramatics!

It doesn't sound as if your ds has a medical problem, but how would he know that- did he take a history, ask questions, examine your ds, talk to him?

Sorry, I am not a doctor. I am a vet, and I see many animals with behavioural issues. I do not rant at people that they are wasting my time, I talk through their issues, so I am better informed as to who best to refer them to, and so that I can write a comprehensive referral letter to that person. And there are times where people just need to talk, be heard and reassured that I will find someone who can give them the best advice. To my ind, that is professional courtesy, and there was no need for him to behave the way he did, bad day or not.

I was actually thinking of taking DD (4) to our GP because of sleeping issues and now I'm a bit scared.

She physically finds it impossible to fall asleep. As she gets more and more tired seems to become increasingly hyperactive which obviously makes the problem worse.

We have tried sleep training methods recommended by our HV which havent worked and we have altered her diet cutting out anything which could be causing the problem.

I am completely exhausted - she generally doesnt go to sleep before midnight and wakes at 6.

If I'm not to see my GP, then where should we turn for help?

I think your GP did behave unprofessionally. It sounds like he was out of his depth and transferring his frustration about this onto you. Which is not acceptable. He should have listened and given you support even if he was unable to offer practical help himself, and then refer you to an agency who could help. I'm assuming, however, that this problem wasn't brought up in an evening emergency appointment, at 6.20pm, with 5 minutes allocated and after 3 other problems had been discussed, he'd done a pap smear on you and he'd seen your other child about 2 other unrelated problems. I speak as a GP. Good luck with the sleep clinic.

GP shouldn't have acted like that, but it is such an extreme reaction and if it is out of character I wonder what has happened to make him snap? I think I would still probably want to talk to someone about it, because he is a doctor and needs to be more in control regardless of what is going on with him. But doctors are people and you might have just been the straw that broke the camel's back.

RE: Your DS, sorry I agree with most of the other posters. I think he is messing with you. Send him back to bed, let him whinge and scream and cry, if your 2 year old wakes up, resettle her. He doesn't have to sleep he has to be in his bed and quiet between set hours. If he doesn't do that then punish him, he must have something he likes, games or whatever, take it away if he doesn't stay in his bed.

If you genuinely think there is something else going on then why are you so concerned about 'labels'?

The sitting by the door, the resettling at 5? He has you sorted. It wouldn't break my heart, it would piss me off, and DS would be in deep shit.

Sorry,,, only read first page and some posts on last page.

Indeed complain. Informal written letter. That doctor may have personal issues that need to be dealt with and time off may be what he needs.

If your DS is climbing into bed and you don't notice until he starts tossing and turning or you turn and wake him, you need to set something up at your bedroom door that will wake you before he gets near the bed so you can get up and usher him back. It'll be hell for a wee bit, the new rules, but in the end, it will benefit all.

OP--does your DS have any other issues (behavioural or otherwise) that cause you concern? Sleep troubles CAN just be behavioural or can indicate underlying medical or psychological problems. It's important to identify which you are dealing with. You know your son best, what do your instincts tell you?

OP, YANBU to be shocked at the behaviour of this GP. Nothing will happen to him unless you make a complaint, though.
With regards to the sleeping, you've mentioned that people have suggested your DS has ADHD. I know you seem uncomfortable with that and I can't say whether he does or doesn't! Just for your own information, children with ADHD are often very insecure (because the world is such a confusing place when you can't be "present") and one thing many seem to need is constant company. All of my children have forms of ADHD and all are terrible sleepers. All of them woke in the night and wanted to be near us. The conventional wisdom of putting them back into bed over and over or letting them cry it out just did not work. All it did was leave them and us distraught and exhausted.
In the end, we decided to just go with it. As long as they went to sleep in their own beds, if they came into ours in the night, we'd move over and make room. No fuss. In the end, as the DDs matured, they seemed to need to do it less and less. DS (5) still regularly comes into our bed. If he kicks and wriggles too much, I go into his bed or the spare room. No drama.
He won't do it forever.

Sounds horrible. Even if he felt he couldn't help there are ways of saying it!

For sleeping, he's old emough now for something like a Gro-clock. dd loves hers and gets very excited when she sleeps through (as do we). She's just turned 3 and it means she now knows when it's time to get up and doesn't get up before the sun picture arrives on the screen!

Please don't listen to posters who tell you that children are manipulative. This is so dismissive and ignores the fact that your child might have legitimate fears and anxieties about being alone in the dark.

The Gp handled this badly. I don't think you were seeking to "make it medical" by which I assume he means looking for sleep medication to be prescribed. He was a fool to assume that and should have talked it through with you rather than telling you off and dismissing you - rather like the Victorian parent who ignores their "manipulative" child.

"Now im pretty he doesnt have ADHD as some people seem all to keen to label him with however i do need some proffesional advice on how to make him sleep."

Interesting. I didn't know anything about Special Need's. No one ever suggested there was anything wrong with my son. It was always me. Crying. Begging for help. Wondering why normal parenting techniques hadn't worked. Then finally it was suggested he might have Aspergers.

There is more going on here. He has been labelled as ADHD by many, but OP thinks not.

Please describe his behaviour OP.

My oldest son was a very bad sleeper. However now he's nearly 12 I can't get him out of bed...so there is light at the end of the tunnel!!!

If he is going to sleep, waking up to go in with you and then dropping off to sleep again I don't think that there is anything 'medical' that can be done.

It is tough being sleep deprived for years, I know. But it might be case of waiting for him to mature and grow out of it.