To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

[Tryharder]

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed .

I completely agree with you tryharder. I'm letting my son figure things out in his own time. I couldn't give a crap about what other people's kids are doing, or what is the 'norm.' Makes me feel sad too.

I think it's sad that some people don't listen to their babies or follow their cues.

YANBU its just another part of competitive parenting. some babies will thrive on a strict routine but some won't. I just think you should leave them to it and get help/advice if they are a noticeably behind the average. personnally i don't get competitive parenting in any of its forms, mainly because i would happily spent my life with a new born and don't wish my DD will ever grow up. (I'm finding it difficult that she is moving to the toddler room in her nursery next week.)

I do agree but I also have a 10mo who wakes constantly through the night and wants to be carried all day despite sling, co sleeping etc etc and I have often thought I wish I'd tried something different but just can't leave him to cry.

Is it from first timers with unrealistic expectations of what babies are like? I have to admit to ignoring those threads, as I've just gone with the flow. But then maybe that's why I have a 9 month old that still wakes 3+ times a night

My son is 15 months old, likes to be carried lots, has only slept through once. I just figure he's little, he's working things out for himself, he'll get there. He's a baby.

sadly no- I am currently having words with my mother over the way mi sister is doing stuff with her 3 month old son.

She will put him down for a nap at set times and even when he is wide awake and not grumping she will let him scream himself to sleep.
She has started giving him baby rice- I told my mother never to let me hear those words again. let alone put it in his bottle in the same sentences.

She tells us off for carrying him around all the time- when he's at home he rarely gets picked up. he is usually on a playmat or in his bouncer while she goes outside( where she cannot see him) for a smoke.

She doesn't get that babies are designed to want to be close to parents, to cry etc. She doesn't get that at 12 weeks old he can laugh, scream, eat and fill his nappy. He can't manipulate you in the way she thinks he does.

I worry about him already.

Exactly PLW, my 10mo still wakes every few hours no matter what I do and I could do with a bit less of 'listening to his cues' at 3am!

It's nothing to do with being draconian. Some people like their babies to have some sort of routine and to sleep as much as possible during the night. This was my aim when I had my babies, I was never cruel to them, they were and are perfectly happy and my life was happier as well.
Some people seem to think that there are only 2 ways of doing things.
a] carry baby around in sling, put nipple in mouth as soon as baby whimpers, cosleep etc etc
or b] stick baby in pram at the bottom of the garden, ignore them when they scream for hours etc etc etc.
This isn't true. There are many different ways of caring for babies. As long as they are healthy and happy who cares?

I would say there are valid points on both sides, but a baby has to have a routine, and it is the job of the parent, in my view to instigate and maintain a routine, and not always be led by what the baby wants.

I think you make a rod for your own back if you let your child lead the way and dictate your life.

When I had ds1 and ds2 I read every book I could get my hands on, listened to everyones advice and was determined to do things 'right'. I ended up struggling to bond with my babies, severe pnd and utterly miserable. Eight years on I have now got dd and am taking every cue from her, she is ebf ( something I never got past a few weeks with before)at five months, sleeps 10 hours a night and is an absolute joy. I haven't felt the way I did before once. However, despite how happy we are and how well she is doing, I am inundated with advice about how she should now be weaning, bottle may be better as she feeds so often, her bedtime should be earlier, the list goes on.
Thankfully I'm older and I hope a little wiser now and am ignoring everyone apart from my dd. I wish I could have done that with my boys and saved a lot of heartache. I think there is so much advice out there that we are swamped and much too worried about what is 'normal' that we forget all babies are different.

ooohhhhhh fatlazymummy i'm with you

My babies didn't read any books, so therefore went their own way with a little guidance from me.

Agree with fatlazymummy

Sometimes you need a routine. It's all very well being totally baby lead but what if you have older kids to get ready for school and you didn't get to bed til god knows when because baby wanted to play?

I have twins. If I hadn't had a routine I would have been more of a sleep deprived fruitloop than I was.

Each to their own.

it's not always about "convenience" though, tryharder.
i needed to go back to work at 6mo with dd1. she was not sleeping. i was dangerously tired. we therefore did cc, to stop things from falling apart.
dd2 is EBF, is carried and cosleeps. she wakes every hour or two. that's fine right now, as i don't have to work, or drive much. yet i will need her to sleep better when i go back to work, and if she hasn't started sleeping better then i will do cc again.

I agree with fatlazymummy.

OK, a few people are at an extreme end of the spectrum, either allowing the baby to totally dictate the routine, or imposing a rigid routine. But most people will fall somewhere in the middle, depending on many other variables in their life. If you are returning to work, it's necessary, and better for your baby, to have a sensible routine, because ultimately if you need to be up, fed, dressed and out of the house by 7.30 or whenever, then it's not fair on the baby to have haphazard bedtimes or mealtimes. And in fact the same could be said of any situations with 2nd of subsequent children, because you have to consider the needs of the whole family. If there are other children who need taking to nursery/school, then you need to follow a routine.

The only mum I've ever known who really did just follow her baby's every whim, carrying him round til 2 am if he didn't want to sleep, laying in until 10 am if that suited, and never letting him so much as whimper, changed things pretty sharpish next time round with her second baby, as she realised it was just unworkable with a larger family

Our society just isn't geared up in a very "natural" way to raise babies. Letting them do biologically normal things like sleeping close to us, being carried, feeding little and often (all normal for our species) is thought of as making a rod for you own back or worse spoiling your child.

Our society values independce - independent babies and independent parents. We don't rely on families/communities to spread the burden of childrearing and it's often too much for one person on their own in a house to deal with, so the focus has to be on making babies need us less.

Yanbu. Dd is a baby, she is incapable of being bad or naughty. I do think part of it is that society has changed, women have less support and advice.

I think there is a difference between a routine and expecting your baby to fit into whatever you determine purely for your own benefit.

MoonUnitAlpha, you are so right.

Our modern lives often tend to be ruled by the clock, and the need to earn a living, and some parents just don't have the luxury of choice between baby-led techniques and others.

"but a baby has to have a routine"

Why? Is there any evidence that babies who conform to strict routines from early on are any happier or healthier? I don't think so!

In any case, don't babies have their own routines eventually anyway. Mine did.

They slept when they were tired and they ate regularly, when they were hungry.

"and not always be led by what the baby wants"

What's the difference between a 'want' and a 'need' when it comes to tiny babies?

If they are hungry they need to be fed. If they're sad they need to be comforted. If they're tired they need to sleep.

"Our modern lives often tend to be ruled by the clock, and the need to earn a living, and some parents just don't have the luxury of choice between baby-led techniques and others."

Bit odd though how parents in developing countries are often so much more baby led in their parenting - carrying their baby a lot, feeding on demand etc. And they don't have the luxury of maternity leave, social security and small families.

"Is there any evidence that babies who conform to strict routines from early on are any happier or healthier? I don't think so!"

No, but the point people are making is that the family as a WHOLE might be happier and healthier.

If a mother is rushing about, manically trying to feed an overtired baby before dashing into the office late, or if older children at repeatedly woken up at all hours by a baby who has no routine, or if the older children are dashing into school late because the whole family are a slave to whatever the baby is doing, it doesn't make for happy contented family life.

I don't see any point in imposing a strict routine on a baby just for routine's sake. However, all the children in a family are equally important, and they deserve to have enough routine in family life to feel secure and not stressed