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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

513 replies

Tryharder · 30/01/2011 11:50

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed Sad.

OP posts:
MoonUnitAlpha · 30/01/2011 18:33

People do co-sleep and sling twins.

But anyway, it's not routine that's the problem, it's ignoring a baby's needs in order to teach them a lesson about who is in control.

PenguinArmy · 30/01/2011 18:57

hmm there is a lot of talk regarding work being incompatible with baby led. I beg to disagree. I went back at 4 months. Had at least another 3 months of wakings and feeding (BF) every 2 hours and really average of 3 hourly wakings are still normal at 11 months.

twinmum: you don't have to justify yourself to anyone. I've been lucky to have support and you did what you felt was required at the time. So some people co-sleep and sling twins but doesn't mean the two sets have the same temperament.

twinmumplus1inthetum · 30/01/2011 19:08

MoonUnitAlpha - I helped run a twins club with 150 families and only came across one who co-slept (as in every night) and it was mum in bed with one twin, dad in a different bed with another and only two families who used a double twin sling (mostly used by dad and only on occasion as the shear weight and bulk of carrying two babies at the same time is impractical.)
I would never impose a routine in order to 'teach a baby a lesson', I agree that that is absurd and draconian. My response is to tryharder's final thought about why we are "so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs" - that sometimes routines are used out of necessity and not to simply to make our lives convenient.

onceamai · 30/01/2011 19:16

Well mine are 12 and 16. With the first I decided, eventually, that routine meant going with the flow of baby's routine. The second had to slot into no. 1's routine whether she liked it (cried) or not because we just had to be at certain places at certain times.

Also learnt (by the time DC1 went to school that an awful lot of mums had been lying through the baby stage and things hadn't been going as swimmingly as they had pretended four or five years previously.

schmee · 30/01/2011 19:57

I wish I had been able to use the twin carrier that I had but actually it was physically impossible to get them into it safely. And safety was important. I never let my children cry it out - ever.

But that doesn't mean that I didn't introduce some elements of a routine into my children's lives quite early. They had my absolute attention and love - just because they weren't being suckled constantly doesn't mean they didn't.

ipredicttrouble · 30/01/2011 20:24

YABU

Agree with fatlazymummy from page one.

morningrunner · 30/01/2011 20:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

felicity10 · 30/01/2011 20:26

I don't disagree that some sort of routine is helpful but what drives me potty is the prescribed books which are written in such a way that people feel the need to follow them to the letter. The pressure people end up putting themselves under is just daft. But it is a great way to sell books!

Use the books for guidance, sure, take tips and adapt to suit your lifestyle - but a routine doesn't need to be established on day 1. Babies don't read books, or run a blackberry to know when they should be doing things.

I confess to sniggering at those who couldn't come out to lunch as their baby had to be in their own darkened room for the whole lunch period.....seriously, I really think the lunch and a chat with friends did everyone more good.

SickOnMyShoulder · 30/01/2011 20:31

DS had reflux and cried for over 24 hours without falling asleep when he was 4 months old. I held him, carried him in a sling, fed him constantly and tried to put him to sleep in our bed. He'd fall asleep out of sheer exhustion and wake up screaming 10 minutes later. Eventually I put him in his cot, gave him a kiss and took a long shower. 15 minutes later when I opened his door he was fast asleep, and he slept for 3 hours straight. After that we put him on a routine of "two hours awake-time for a sleep" and he became a happy smiley baby, even if sometimes he cried for 5 minutes whilst settling himself to sleep. Don't knock routines, some babies don't give clear sleep cues and some parents need the help.

daretodream · 30/01/2011 20:32

twinmum, I had twins and didn't impose a routine; as I said above we sort of 'fell' into one at 4-5 months. But I was very lucky that they both seemed to be pretty easygoing. And I still co sleep on occasion (but not with both at the same time). And I quite often had one in a sling and another in my arms.

I also ebf them. It's true I was up for most of the night most nights for the first three months and I didn't know if I was coming or going, but one DT didn't wake to feed, so when his brother woke up, I woke DT2 and fed him too. (does that count as imposing a routine?? Maybe it does!). I was knackered, and bonkers, but we were happy and we coped. I went back to work when they were 9 months old, by which time they were pretty much sleeping through.

As I said, I was lucky that they were easygoing babies!

northernrock · 30/01/2011 20:46

I remember reading a book that said things like "your baby will (will!) sleep from 9 am to 9.45..."

Post baby and nutty as I was I drove myself crazy feeling like my baby wasn't doing what he ought to. For about a day. Then I chucked the book away.

I kind of dont get the on demand feeding though.
I had a baby who would literally have suckled all day long, not really feeding but just hanging out Grin

I decided to have some kind of structure to feeds so that I could make sure he was getting a proper feed each time, not just lolling about, and so that I didn't have a baby surgically attached to my nipple 24 hours a day.

He wasn't a small baby, and he gained weight consistently, so I figured every 2 and a half to three hours was fine. I dont really see whats wrong with that tbh.

Unwind · 30/01/2011 20:58

"I think the problem with this kind of thread is that quite a few ( though by no means all) of the 'go with the flow' types can come across as smug, sanctimonious and judgmental."

Absolutely. If going with the flow works, that is great, you are lucky. Not everyone is.

MiniMarmite · 30/01/2011 20:58

Haven't read the whole thread and I'm sure someone must have already said it but surely there is balance to be had and different things work for different families anyway?

I have worked towards a routine with both of my children from very early on but also listened to their needs for food/sleep etc - they got into the desired routine pretty fast but still had their needs met along the way.

Miffster · 30/01/2011 20:58

I'm trying to follow my 7 week old baby's cues, and I'm also trying to get him to have a bedtime of between 6.30 and 7.30pm, because if he is up and awake all evening he gets overtired and cries and cries.

I EBF on demand, which is every 2-3 hours. I talk and sing to him, play with him.
I cuddle him whenever he wants, I hurry to attend to his cries - unless he is grilling for 2-3 mins before falling asleep, having been transferred from my arms/sling/buggy to bed.

I do everything I can to attend to his needs and so does DH. We are both exhausted and sleep deprived. We do nothing else but look after the baby. I wish my baby cued me so I could understand his own preferred 'routine' and pre-empt his needs and help him fall asleep/get fed before he is ratty and hungry etc but some nights he just cries and cries and cries.

:(

theresapotatoundermysink · 30/01/2011 21:09

I think it's very easy to come on here and say 'Well my baby did this, I did this and we didn't need a routine' or 'You're creating a rod for you own back if you do this...'. You don't know what other peoples lives are like or more importantly what their baby is like.

I know if I'm out all day my baby will sleep in the buggy/sling/car seat as and when she needs. If we're at home for the day though a concious effort needs to be made to put her down for naps, which perhaps suit the routine of the day i.e. making sure DD has a nap before a friend comes over so we can enjoy the visit. Even for the same child being 'baby led' or routine led can alter depending on what else is going on at that time.

And nothernrocks post above is a prime example, her baby needed a feeding routine. I feed on demand with my baby, but her demanding happened to be every 3-4 hours. If she had of been feeding differently maybe I would of started a routine, who knows? We did what suited our babies, whether it was a routine or not.

ReshapeWhileDamp · 30/01/2011 21:10

YANBU. But I suspect it's always been thus.

I get fed up with being asked if DS2 is 'a good baby' - by which they mean, sleeping at night and basically not bothering me. I always reply - 'He's a newborn baby! He's good at being a newborn' and smile. They mostly don't get it. Hmm

2dogs1baby · 30/01/2011 21:15

Do you know what the worst phrase I hear everyday is ..... "you're making a rod for your own back"

If I enjoy co-sleeping, don't mind having a bottle to hand incase my DD is hungry before her 4 hours & if I enjoy carrying her around & spending all my time with her how is that "making a rod for my own back"??

It is competitive parenting in my book - "oh my DD sleeps through the night & we have an exact routine what a success!" madness!

twinmumplus1inthetum · 30/01/2011 21:17

miffster - just wanted to say (routine or no routine) it does get easier, more fun and less tiring. It sounds like you are doing a good job.

porcamiseria · 30/01/2011 21:20

no flaming from me, I agree

let babies be babies I say

then, I do have 2 that are not super keen on sleeping, so I would say that.....

but i have been alot more baby led, and alot more relaxed with DS2

WikiSpeaks · 30/01/2011 21:24

Your baby has never been born before

Nobody has written a book about your baby

If there is a book out there right for your baby, he/she won't have read it.

Grin
pinkhyena · 30/01/2011 21:28

ReshapeWhileDamp I agree, i've had that comment about my 3 month old so many times it's driven me mad! Babies are babies they don't know how to be naughty at this age.

I think we're quite lucky that our LO is quite laid back but I tried to work him into a routine early on because all the books said I should and it did not work in the slightest. I did start to implement a bedtime routine about a month ago and I try to keep his feeds at roughly the same times each day but kind of go with the flow apart from that. I think as our 1st LO it's lulling us into a false sense of security for when we have the next one lol!

I don't understand why it has to be one extreme or the other, as someone said earlier, babies aren't clones and shouldn't be treated that way.

juleswill · 30/01/2011 21:38

A routine, if done well, can anticipate and fulfil a tiny baby's needs, without the need for leaving them to cry, leaving them hungry etc.

If you have a routine, you can ensure that your baby never needs to get so hungry they cry for a feed, or so overtired that they fight sleep.

You can ensure that they have all the nourishment they need during the day so that they sleep better at night.

This does not mean that you ignore them if they seem hungry, or put them down to sleep when they are clearly not tired.

Personally I think by having this sort of routine you are doing better by your baby than expecting them to take all their sleeps 'on the go' in slings and pushchairs, rather than the comfort of their own bed - because you just don't know when they are going to need a sleep. Or having to do a quick feed 'on the go' rather than knowing when the baby is likely to be hungry and scheduling ample time to have a nice long and satisfying feed, in a comfortable environment.

2dogs1baby · 30/01/2011 21:47

I know when my DD is hungry before she cries, I can tell. Same with being tired. Don't think for a second that just because we have no strict routine she has to cry for everything she wants.

I just think that a routine works for some people, others like me choose to do things differently.

Oh and my DD isn't rushed to feed, wherever I am I will stop for as long as she needs. And she sleeps on me in the day which is very comfortable thank you!!!

(I'm prepared to get some flaming, but implying that no routine means lots of crying & an uncomfortable unhappy child is just wrong. It's quite simply a different way of patenting)

2dogs1baby · 30/01/2011 21:48

*parenting!

dietcokeandwine · 30/01/2011 21:55

The thing is, it's perfectly possible to have a general routine but go with the flow and follow your baby's cues.

In the same way, it's perfectly possible to do the attachment parenting thing and not, in any way, 'make a rod for your own back'.

Unfortunately human nature does seem to be horribly competitive, and all parenting types can be guilty of it in equal measure. The "attachment parenting" community are just as guilty of this, to be absolutely fair, as the 'you-have-got-to-have-a-routine-or-else-go-insane' posse. I've read threads from both "types" where posters have sounded horribly smug/judgemental/patronising etc, and they don't make comfortable reading.

Everyone is different, every baby is different, and what works for one family might not work for another. When are we all going to stop judging everyone else and just live and let live?

As for 'the books' - very easy answer to that one. Don't buy them. Don't read them. Ignore them. As with the Mumsnet threads, all babycare authors are as guilty as each other of being smug/patronising/judgemental.