To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

[Tryharder]

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed .

I think we're getting a bit fixated on routine/no routine, when that isn't really the issue.

You can have a routine and still respond to your baby's needs - a routine can be based on a baby's needs. Just like you can have no routine at all and still not cuddle your baby for fear of spoiling it, not feed on demand so the baby doesn't win.

I certainly agree that people have unrealistic expectations - a situation exacerbated by the advice from "experts" and even HCP. I knew NOTHING about babies before DD was born. During my ante-natal classes the MW told us about the importance of putting your baby down sleepy but awake. We all nodded in agreement. It was a bit of a shock (to DD as well no doubt) to be confronted by this screaming newborn who wouldn't go to sleep if put down. DD and I were much happier once I followed my own instincts.

However, I hate this false dichotomy that you either slavishly follow all your child's wishes or impose a routine. Or indeed that it's anyone else's business (within certain bounds obviously; neglect is clearly wrong). You do what works for you and your baby, and the rest of your family and why should anyone else be interested?

exactly Moonunitalpha (shouldn;t that be Moon Base Alpha?)

I may be silly but I don't judge other parents who raise their children differently :) I have friends who co-sleep, do extended BF and go with the flow

I had mental health issues following the birth of my first child - a routine helped me get well - it would have don't neither of us any good to keep failing at 'going with the flow'

I think the problem is when people assume that having a routine is something that is "forced" on the baby, simply to meet the mother's needs rather than the baby's.

But life is a little more complex than that, isn't it. What if the mother wants/needs to return to work when the baby is 3/6/9 months? If the mother doesn't establish some sort of routine, to enable her to fulfil what she needs to do, then it's actually very unfair on the baby. And equally unfair if she loses her job because she can't organise herself and her baby, and the family end up unable to cope. Also, other children in the family have needs too - being taken to school/picked up on time, being able to continue other activities in their life.

It's not as simple as just doing 'what the mother wants' or 'what the baby wants'.

A routine enables everyone in the family to be contented, not just one person (whether that's the mother or the baby)

I agree with those who say that most people find a groove between routine and baby led.

The problem I think is that many people have no real idea what they're doing and more and more were far away from the family and support networks we traditionally had.

DD is almost 5 weeks and I have no idea what I'm doing. Should I wake her? Should I feed her again? Should I try to get her to Sleep? Why won't she sleep? What do I do now? Arrrrgh!

yanbu

sometimes it seems parents expect way too much of babies, and its as if they only want to have a "well behaved" baby so it reflects well on them.

but all babies are different. i like to think i am an ok parent, i try my best, but with DC1 he was an angel, so easy, slept through, ate well, was very happy and calm and now he is a loving, gentle, well behaved, happy 4 year old. i would like to attribute this to my amazing parenting skills. but sadly i think its just his personality and the way he is, because DC2 (19 months) has been the total opposite, hard work, demanding, not a good sleeper or eater but i have done NOTHING different, its just the way she is.

I agree with MoonUnit. I think it is unfair to assume that routine automatically means draconian and unresponsive. If a baby is happy and well-fed and its needs are met then who cares how you got there? Routines don't automatically mean leaving them to cry and to be honest I find the attachment parenting style just as liable to be competitive (as in the 'I co-slept, breast-fed, baby-wore' announcements which seem to be a badge of honour just as much as 'my baby slept through'.)

All babies are different but all parents are different. Some need more structure than others - it doesn't mean they are starving their baby. And if you have a very small baby at birth you will need to do things like wake them up from sleep and feed them before they cry for it as they are too small to wake to demand the food they need.

What really needs to happen is that people need to stop judging others on their choices and assuming that one way of doing things is better than another. Aside from the extremes of neglect or (later on) giving in to every demand your toddler has, there are many different ways of raising happy children.

Very good point there desertOrchid. My prem baby had a very strict routine of being fed EBM while in hospital - on the hour, every hour to begin with, then reducing to every 2,3 hours etc. When she came home, I was under strict instructions to wake her at specific times as she was still very small.

Agreed Fatlazymummy - Couldn't have said it better

I think the vast majority of us are just muddling through somewhere in the middle, but for some there does seem to be a definite obsession to acheive certain goals - ie sleeping through. Me, I woul just like him to sleep a bit

Your right, and it extends to toddlers and pre school children too. They dont allow them to develop at their own pace, no, if your child is not like everybody else they must have an SN. Not necessarily. It seems as though that the system want kids to be all singining, dancing, talking like adults, potty trained and able to make a cup of tea by the time they are 2, if not there is something wrong.

Routines don't mean having to leave your baby to cry - exactly! My issue is with people who think that the ONLY way to establish a routine is to 'show the baby who's boss' from the start and just let them cry. :(

My dd is 3.11 years, is very sharp and intelligent, but is rather babyish for her age, and has communication problems,she is quite interverted and will communicate with people and in evnironments which she is familiar with, she though is getting better. We are under the SALT, paediatric paedritrician, Ed Psycho you name it.

Basically the paedrtrican has said that dd has a slight speech and communication development delay, did not seem very concerned, and said that they will see her in a years time as a lot of development takes place between 3-5. We have been rejected for a statement as it was deemed her needs were not as great, as I thought, but the headteacher was adament that theyneededit she needed it. The recommendations were that the nursery had to improve the way they communicate with her and their own resources.

I understand that some young children do have SN and need support early, but i know my child, I was the same myself and did not communicate properly until I was 5-6, I did it myself without the need of intervention and examination

hobnobsaremyfave :
I let DS1 "find his own routine" until he was 18 months old. The lack of sleep and chaos that ensued...

I think it depends on your baby, surely?
I let my dd find her own routine, and it worked brilliantly. By 4 weeks old she was feeding every 4 hours during the day, with pretty much constant feeding from around 7.00pm until about midnight, at which point she would doze off and sleep until 7.00am. Once weaned, I sort of imposed routine - I offered her breakfast food at breakfast time, and lunch-type food at lunchtime etc, but even these mealtimes were a fairly movable feast depending on what i was doing (mornings when I worked, it was a bit later for example).

I think that each baby is an individual. Some babies quickly settle into a routine of their own making. I did everything 'by the baby' instead of 'by the book' and it all fell into place for us. I had a happy, contented and placid baby who was a joy to be with. Other babies just don't operate like that.

I also think it changes with age. I started imposing a routine (of sorts) as I was weaning - I offered breakfast food at breakfast time, lunch food at lunch time etc! I tend to put her to bed at around the same time each night, and I tend to give her a bath first so she knows what is coming next.

I think there tends to be a tendency to polarise a bit too much. 'Routine' tends to invoke images of a terrifyingly strict, clock-watching mother, refusing to pick up her baby except at specified times, and lack of routine implies chaos and a mother who cannot see past her own infant. I don't think either extreme is especially helpful - you can do things differently as a baby grows, adjusting to their needs and gradually adjusting them to the needs of the wider family as they grow. You can do some routine but not be rigid about it.
Most of all, I think it is important that you find a way that works for you and keeps your baby happy. I don't think that a baby who screams for an hour or more can be said to be happy and that, to my mind, needs looking at. That baby is simply learning that when something is wrong, no-one comes to help as the baby has no concept of time. 10 minutes, because the baby is tired and yet unable to settle? I never let mine cry, at least not until she was 10 months and we did controlled crying to teach her how to settle herself to sleep (she liked to go to sleep on us, but was easy to put down after she'd dozed off), but I don't think it would cause lasting damage.

Ultimately, people have to get to know their own children and figure out the way that works best for them and their babies. And usually, most of us fit somewhere in the middle rather than at polar ends of the spectrum.

Ed Psycho

typo :)

Hmmm i'm in the middle with this one, like fatlazymummy says it doesn't have to be one way or another. I was fairly baby led with dd rocked/fed/patted her to sleep, didn't let her whimper carried her everywhere in a sling and luckily for me she slept through by herself at 4.5 months. However with ds I couldn't be quite so fluffy, I had a 3 year old to look after too. I demand fed him but always put him down drowsy but awake for naps rather than use a prop and sometimes he had to cry for a bit because I was busy doing something else (vivid memory of walking round the house with shampoo in hair after dashing out of the shower to see to dd after 2 seconds of whimpering ).

There are some issues I have unapologetic opinions on though, like co-sleeping with toddlers, dummies on newborns "to spin them out between feeds" and bf in the night once they're fully weaned and refusing to do any kind of sleep training despite the whole family being on it's knees with exhaustion. They have to learn to self settle at some point and it is possible to gently coax them with this once the newborn phase has passed. Sadly babies won't alawys just magically do things when they're ready. they have to be taught.

i don't think wanting your baby to sleep is unfair or even unrealistic (with healthy term baby)

also if you do the same things every day - there you have a routine!

i think there is plenty of room to be all cuddly with baby without sacrificing your sanity to sleep-deprivation.

There are things you can do to make it more likely your baby will sleep well. That's why its worth asking for advice. Which is surely what this board is for?

I think it is human nature to have some sort of pattern to the day. I don't think it is odd to have a pattern. Even my cat follows a routine of sorts. Habits form, they feel secure and safe if they are good habits, destructive if they are bad.

I think some people misintepret responsiveness to small babies. Sometimes a baby just wants to be left in peace and quiet to settle down to sleep, not endlessly stimulated and fed. Maybe he might cry for 5 minutes as he settled down, but that might save hours of crying that might result from being overtired. Maybe in the "old" days there were more people around just to hold the baby so he got that peace and quiet, but we get into an unfortunate pickle of tryiing lots of different things to stop babies crying.

I am absolutely in favour of demand feeding, and in the first few months of having twins I never even made them sleep at the same time or feed at the same time, but by the time they were six months a very relaxed routine definitely worked. And a confident bedtime routine at 7pm.

Sadly it's not just today's society. Years ago it was very common for babies to be given small amounts of alcohol to get them to sleep...gripe water even contained it and many babies were fed it before bed on a regular basis.

We have Dts. They were ebf. We never imposed a routine, we kind of fell into one when the babies were 4 or 5 months old and seemed to want to sleep and feed vaguely predictably. DT1 slept through at 4 months, Dt2 not until 8 months. They are now 16 months. We all get a reasonable amount of sleep, and they still want 2 naps a day I could never leave either of them to cry and I wouldn't have wanted to.

I did when a friend texted me recently 8 days after the birth of her 1st DC asking when she was likely to get into a routine and sleep predictably as she thought she should have been sorting herself out by then!!

piglet if any of my kids could make my tea, I'd feel my job was done...

I listen to a work colleague of mine talking about his twin baby girls and how he ignores them when they cry at night and refers to them as pests. He doesn't want them to be clingy and so doesn't cuddle them.

It does upset me to hear this.

minx are you against cosleeping with toddlers? May I ask why?

Mine sleep in their own cots but on occasion (teething, poorly etc.) they will come in with me if they are upset in the night.

They love it (and I secretly do too sometimes) and we all get more sleep.

edgar but I've had people asking me if he slept through since he was about 5 weeks old (or worse asking me if he was "good")! that's riduculous, a minority of babies may sleep through at that age, but it's surely not the norm and surely most people realise that babies often don't sleep through till an awful lot later than that?

And yes, I'd dearly love him to sleep, but until he doesn't need feeding in the night, he's not going to.

tryharder actually I think YANBU at all, although I am glad to say I have never met anyone who did follow a draconian regime.