To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

[Tryharder]

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed .

We got ds into a routine straightaway it wasn't very strict at first we fed him roughly every four hours bottle fed and putt him to sleep after it worked for us and he has slept through the night since about six weeks old , I do sometimes leave him to cry , if for example he has been out down to sleep he will always cry for a bit now if I picked him up straightaway he would soon learn that if he cries mum is going to pick him up evey time , that said we can tell he difference In cries and know when to pick him up he is never left too
long. EVery one has their own way the routine worked for us and I haven't missed a nights sleep in months , but I would never judge anyone else for he way they bring up their dc it's not my place . New mothers may not suffer pnd so bad if loads of people did not stick their neb in at every opportunity to give their opinion or judgement on how your doing it "wrong" I have a friend who is still like this but I tell him very firmly I'm ds mother my way has worked perfectly well for six months (and to back the fuck off under my breath)

I don't know anyone with draconian regimes either. People have unrealistic expectations because they have no experience of babies. In the days of big families they were always around, now you can grow up,have one of your own without having had any close contact.
I see posts such as 'is my 7 month old the only one not to sleep through the night?' I don't bother replying as I don't have a baby now but it makes me smile, mine were at least 2 yrs! In the same way people think they are doing something wrong if their 2 yr old has a tantrum or refuses to eat, or they take it personally if their 3 yr old says 'I don't love you any more' I only love Daddy' or they think that their 4 yr old is so exceptional that a school can't cope if he can read. It is all because they haven't a clue what is in the normal range.
I think that everyone wants the best for their child.

what i mean is, if you were a particularly nervous or restless parent, who tiptoed round their baby all day and picked thm up at the first squeak, then if you reached the point of wanting to know what to do to help your baby sleep better, there are probably people who would advise you to change things a bit.

if on the other hand, you are doing it tribeswoman style, observing quiet darkness at night, light and noisy during the day, generally being relaxed with baby and the little bugger still won't sleep, then yes it is all about the baby, but at the very least you could still get sympathy.

I think it isn't a one or other thing - parental behaviour does influence sleep, but also there are some babies that just won't sodding stay quiet!

Because of SheWhoMustNotBeNamed.

NuffSaidTiggaxx

Yup sorry Ed Psych , she is really nice not psycho

That is mayor, I love hugging, cuddeling, kissing my dd, we both love it. Thats why we have children. Looks like this guy just sees them as an inconvenience.

I know of people who won't feed their babies at night, leave them to cry themselves to sleep, and refuse to comfort a crying baby because they'll "come to expect it". I mean, wtf?? I want my baby to expect someone to comfort him if he cries, how sad to think some babies learn no one cares.

I think a lot of people lie when asked if their baby is 'sleeping through' and say yes to avoid the deluge of unsolicited 'advice' that will follow if they say no.

We really have got a very skewed view of what babies are 'supposed' to be like in this country, but when you think that most mothers are left on their own a fortnight after giving birth and there's no other pair of hands around until dad comes home at night, then you can't blame people for seeking an apparently magic solution.

I do wish I lived in a culture where you are looked after by your female relatives for the first 2 months and all you have to do is stay in bed and feed your baby - it would get you through the 6 week growth spurt a treat and give your pelvic floor muscles a chance to begin to recover!

DD was the kind of baby who wailed whenever she was put down, napped for 40 mins tops maybe twice a day if I was lucky and constantly needed fed. So all in all, as I now know, a fairly normal baby!

But as I sat there, anchored to the sofa surveying the mess around me, I consoled myself with the fact that in her wee head she was only making sure that she wasn't going to be left alone to be eaten by a bear or left behind a bush while the rest of the nomadic family tribe moved off in search of more berries - the genes that have got us this far for millions of years don't just switch off because these are very unlikely things to happen in the 21st centry!

Had to go shopping, just returned to thread. An earlier poster said something that was interesting - that in our society, a "good" baby means one that sleeps through, goes for 4 hours between feeds etc etc.

I am guilty as some of the mothers I am criticising in my OP as with DS1 I tried to follow a routine, gaps between feeds etc because I knew no better and was doing what my mum told me to do! He was a whingy baby and I didn't particularly bond well with him at all.

When he was approx 3 months old, DS and 1 returned to The Gambia where DH is from and where we had been living (I had returned to UK to give birth). About the second day I was there, DS1 was whinging and fussy; he wasn't "hungry" because he had recently been fed. A little Gambian girl (aged about 8) who lived in the neighbouring compound had come over to see us and she said "oh, he wants the breast". I stuck him on the breast in a sort of shock reaction because previously I wouldn't have fed him so soon after a feed. It completely changed the way I parented and I became much more responsive and relaxed. The relationship I had with DS2 when he was born and now with DD who's 6 months is so lovely compared to DS1.

Mine got their own routines going and they just fit into our ones of nipping to the pub and having friends all over hte place.

this used to worry me, but since starting weaning a month ago my ds has fallen into his own routine, which is working well. unfortunately it has gone out the window today as we missed his nap time, and he's asleep on me now(will have to wake him shortly).

what i'm still figuring out is how flexible we can be with the routine in terms of days/evenings out - i don' want our lives to be ruled by the baby's routine, but equally want him to be happy and well-rested.

i also want to know how to get him out of the habit of waking every 3 hours through the night for a feed without him howling the place down...

Agree op. It does seem to me that for a lot of parents it is more about their needs than the baby's.

Although for some maybe they just couldn't cope any other way (or so they think) so imposing routine is better all round????

When he was approx 3 months old, DS and 1 returned to The Gambia where DH is from and where we had been living (I had returned to UK to give birth). About the second day I was there, DS1 was whinging and fussy; he wasn't "hungry" because he had recently been fed. A little Gambian girl (aged about 8) who lived in the neighbouring compound had come over to see us and she said "oh, he wants the breast". I stuck him on the breast in a sort of shock reaction because previously I wouldn't have fed him so soon after a feed. It completely changed the way I parented and I became much more responsive and relaxed.

Tryharder - that has bought a tear to my eye and says so much.

'I do wish I lived in a culture where you are looked after by your female relatives for the first 2 months and all you have to do is stay in bed and feed your baby - it would get you through the 6 week growth spurt a treat and give your pelvic floor muscles a chance to begin to recover!'

I think this is quite funny because of all the posts from people who want to be on their own with their baby! That sort of culture is the sort where MIL is the important one!
I think it was perhaps easier when everyone lived near extended family and you could have the best of both worlds, help on hand but own space. It is partly because people don't have any understanding of babies, or they have read books (the baby hasn't!) or they need routine for work.

Lamorna - of course the other side of the coin, is that those cultures tend to have quite polarised gender roles, so while the woman may be surrounded for weeks by caring, sharing female extended family, the males are expected to take on a very different role.

One thing which I think is a huge leap forward in our society, is that dads are far more likely to be hands on with their children nowadays. Our culture has developed so that pushing a pram, changing the baby and playing with children is not seen as peculiar for men. Although it might sound quite pleasant in theory (from the mums point of view!) to lounge around for two months being waited on hand and foot, it very much excludes the male role in caring for his child. Also, I assume this type of culture has evolved from where the woman used to be 'shut off' from society post-birth, as she was seen as unclean. A ceremony of purification would then mark her return into society. Hardly something relevant or desirable in 21st century.

Exactly altinkum, I am lucky at the moment that dd does not realise she does not match up to everyone else, but there will come a time when she does. A few months ago,the head of the school (her nursery is attched to the school) in a meeting showed me a list of government expected milestones, and said in quite a patronising tone, "dd is dowon there at the bottom, while the others are up there, pointing to the top. She is a very little girl", I said to her yes she is only 3 and each child is different they are not the same.

My good goodness woman how old do you want her to be 8. She is a little girl, she is only 3, do you want her to be old before her time.

Staying in bed for 2 months after giving birth would have been my idea of pure hell.I would probably have died from boredom after the 1st few days.

We are fine to accept differences of ability of adults, some are academic some are not, some are introverted, some are extroverted, but with children they should all be the same!

Try getting a baby with ASD ( but you don't know that at the time) into a routine and you soon learn to be flexible.It's not such a big deal in the scheme of things.

OTOH a few weeks in SCBU worked wonders for DS2. Routine already established on arrival home. Bliss.

Altinkum he is statmented! I am assessed as being dyslexic, only when I was 19 and at college. Through school I struggled with the work, and could have done with extra support. If when dd goes to school and she is struggling I will get her re statmented so she can get support. I myself followed the same pattern as dd, I did not communicate much until I was around 5-6 ish, did not ask the why questions till older and show a deeper understanding of things later. I was incredibly babyish all through childhood, and preferred the rough and tumble of boys to the more mature girls.

I dont think I did too badly, not boasting but just as an example, not is all lost. The teachers were very negative of me, that i would not amount to anything, all i could do is menial work (nothing wrong with that) I have a BA (hons) 2.1 in Pychology and an Msc Health Psychology and want to do the Phd in Clinical Psychology when dd a bit older and specialise in child Psychology. Not from RG unis though but nevermind. I have no problem in communicating now and i am quite a sociable person.

Personally, having been a poser of a question on routines I asked for several reasons....

a) literally everyone from midwives to the postman has asked me since dd was born how the routine was developing
b) only those with kids usually outside of the age bracket you have ever ask, nobody single gives a f, and those with newbies are as desperate/in shock as you are. Those with older kids I assume ditto at whatever point of age the child is. Let you know when I get there.....
c) I thought something wasn't working for us as a family and I wanted an idea from someone else, wiser (potentially, or dafter, a good idea is a good idea after all no matter where it comes from), and whose tried something else I might not have thought of. (I've changed my mind now and decided it wasn't necessarily a problem in the first place, but posing the question helped me decide that for this point in time.)

And most importantly

D) I just wanted to be told it was OK, would be OK and it was normal by someone

A routine I feel just means whens the baby doing what it needs to do and does that work within the family and if not why not and how can you make that better. Or at least over this past month thats where I've got to with this question. And for each of us thats different. Beyond that gives me a headache... :0)

I'm very much with fat lazy mum. I wasn't a fan of very 'set in stone' routines and I hate the sound of a baby crying. By the same token I wanted to sleep and I just did my own little routine (trial and error) and had him sleeping through early on (luck). I was happy for the sleep and ds was a happy little baby too.

Depends on your lifestyle. If you're on mat leave due to go back at 6 months I'd say the pressure is on.

If you are in great financial position and can stay at home and you don't mind being up at nights (or have lots of support) then that could also influence any routines or lack of them etc.

tryharder and all others vehemently anti-routine - please just tell me what you would do if you had twins?
The reality of no routine at all with twins is no sleep AT ALL (constantly feeding / crying through the night)
How would you comfort / rock two babies to sleep at the same time?
How would you carry around twins at the same time, if they wanted to be carried a lot?
How could you possibly co-sleep with twins?
Try following the 'cues' of two babies crying at the same time.......
It makes me very cross when others judge. I routined my babies and also had to let them self-settle early as it was necessary. My dh works long hours so I was on my own most of the time. I also breast fed them, which without any routine (and therefore 0 sleep) would have been impossible. I was not being cruel, I was simply doing the best I could for my children, and they did very well on it.
I have since had a singleton which is a breeze by comparison. I also used a routine with him as I knew how well it worked with the twins, though this time I have had the luxury of being able to be more flexible and more baby-led, whilst using a routine as a guide.
My point (after a ramble) is to consider when you don't have choice........