To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

[Tryharder]

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed .

bubblymummy I think you missed the note of sarcasm in my second post. It's great that you are so wonderful at reading all of your babies cues and are so perfect. Some of the rest of us need a little help and advice, especially when we have no extended family around us and our own mums, who we would naturally have asked for help, are dead. So you looking down on those of us who do seek some help and do some research in addition to using our own instincts grates quite a bit. No-one I know takes a book as gospel and bases all their decisions on books, you take what makes sense and ignore what doesn't work for you. But still I don't feel confident all of the time. Your attitude is really patronising.

Anyway, the point I was making is that I actually agree with you about cc but the way you are expressing your arguments is so irritating and judgemental that I find myself defending cc!!!! If you are alienating people that actually share your point of view, how do you think you will change people's views? If you want people to come around to another way of thinking, perhaps offering alternatives to cc might work, rather than condemning it? I felt when facing appalling sleep deprivation with dd that there were only two choices, grin and bear it or cc, in this country very few people actually seem to know that there are other ways of improving a babies sleep. Maybe if more people knew about gentler methods, they would try this option first before cc. Polarising debate in the way you are doing is not in the least bit helpful and will just upset people. Why not promote alternatives and leave out the judging and patronising?

Newmum, I am sorry if I have alienated you. I realise that by this stage I sound like I am standing on a soapbox condemning all those who aren't doing what I do and that really wasn't my intention! I have been posting responses to posts and that is the way it has gone.

I realise that many people need parenting books to know how to do even the basics with a baby! I am not against that and apologies to everyone who uses them for that reason because I think it may sound like I am saying that! What I dislike about the books are the chapters where they try to tell you what is best for your baby eg eating every x hours, napping every x hours for y minutes etc. I think those type of things undermine parent's own ability to look at their baby and try to understand what he/she needs as an individual. No book was written specifically for your baby(unfortunately!) so trying to fit your baby into the template that the book has set out can cause a lot of problems and heartache. When the authors suggest using methods such as cc to try to 'fit' the baby into their idea of what a routine should be then I get upset. Who are they to say what is right got YOUR baby. Yes, books can tell you some things but I really wish they would draw a line and stop trying to create this 'cardboard cut out' for an ideal baby routine that readers then feel they NEED to do otherwise their child will end up an unstructured mess!

Bubblymummy thanks for apologising.

I don't think that many of the posters on this thread would disagree with you about forcing a baby to fit the template set out in a book exactly. I don't think anyone has said they did cc just to get their baby to fit a routine. I don't think anyone said that they followed books to the letter, just used them for guidance and tips. Some people have done cc to get better sleep, but I bet it was after some months of sleep deprivation, not just to fit a book. Anyway, got to go as can't spend the whole morning on mumsnet!

Don't think Bubbleymummy is being patronising at all.

What I find patronising is when people who have babies that sleep through at very young ages try and foist their routines on others despite the fact that enforcing these routines has caused distress to their babies.

This then leads other mums who are taking a gentler approach to question their own actions. The most basic example would be someone like myself who has demand fed. DD wanted feeding all the time as a newborn. I would have loved it if she had fed every 3 hours or so but no, she clearly needed the milk (my "problem" is a slow letdown). I was subjected to a lecture from a distant relative who had put her baby on a 3 - 4 hour routine. Had I been a first time mum, I would have seriously doubted myself, given up bf etc. As a third time mum, I just smiled and nodded...

Tryharder, I agree with you re demand feeding. My MIL tried to physically take my baby off me when she was two weeks old saying she was "pretending to be hungry". It's horrible and upsetting and I'm one of the mum's who slung their baby all the time and was made to feel like I was crazy by some of my NCT class. At the time I was lacking in confidence and felt very vulnerable. But it works both ways - if demand feeding/breast feeding/co-sleeping etc doesn't work for a new mum - they shouldn't be made to feel bad either. We should give each other a break.

Cleo :

They also don't return to work though do they? They keep working through their childrearing. Childrearing very much fits in with the life they already have. Not the other way round. Be it as a home maker, fetching water/food. Its a different lifestyle and not one thats comparable IMO.

Surely its important to find a balance. Leaving a baby to scream for hours is never going to be desirable. For Mum or baby. Having to carry them around until 18 months old is also not that desirable so its about finding a midway ground.

We'll never all do it the same way as everyone else because light bulb moment we are all different and all have differing needs as human beings/mothers.

Tryharder - surely there is the world of difference between enforcing and encouraging a routine? Is it routine full stop, routine with the intention of encouraging night sleeping, routine with the intention of enforcing nightsleeping, routine with the use of CC, routine with the use of CIO? What is 'bad' and what is 'good', as as you seem so sure you know, which causes distess and which doesnt?

The point I am (probably badly) making is that 'rouine' automatically gets written off as curel hen there are a hundred and one ways of using the term.

A routine that meets a babies needs is fine.

A routine that ignores a baby's needs (even if those needs are "just" the need for comfort or security or reassurance) isn't fine imo.

LOL at bubbleymummy idealising motherhood in 3rd world countries. Obviously she hasnt spent any time there to see how lucky we all are.

This is my first post so be kind!
I beleive that most people are in between the extremes.
I for example think that it is very important for babies to have skin to skin and to BF and to hear heart their parents' beats and smell parents' smells while they are tiny. But I also believe that it is our job as parents to gently guide our babies/ children through life and this includes how to get through the day without getting grotty. ie when is best for naps and food etc. I think that the best way to do this job is in constant consultation with the child as a partnership rather than one or the other being in charge or dictating what happens.

Tryharder, I encountered a mum whose first baby slept sweetly for three hours between feeds, went for 6 hours in the night, etc., and told me I was a right eejit for my demand feeding, getting up in the night, blah, blah with DD1. She changed her tune when her second baby arrived and turned out to be 'routine averse'. She looked as haggard as me when we met at the baby swim thing we used to go to. Every baby is completely different. If you have one who fits in with any routine and is easily 'managed', you are probably just lucky imo. It's not the brilliance of the routine, it's just coincidence.

I love it when a parent has all the answers and they are a 'wonderful parent' and then along comes DC2 who is completely different and it doesn't work!
A mother who likes routines is going to parent best that way, one who hates routines is going to parent best that way. Most people are somewhere between the 2 extremes. You just have to feel sorry for the baby who likes routine who is stuck with no routine mother and the mother who likes routine who has a baby who resists it!

Carolina - I am not 'idealising motherhood in 3rd world countries' simply by pointing out that their community living gives them more experience of bringing up children from an early age. You really are reaching now....