To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

[Tryharder]

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed .

Tryharder

"Shoving a boob in their mouth isnt necessarily responding to their needs,either"

TBH, after 3 DCs I have yet to find a problem where a boob in mouth did not go a llong way to ease a situation.

I agree but in the past few days I got myself into a place I didn't want to be with DD (5w) the other day. She was starting to use boob to pacify, napping for 20 mins, anything that woke her up she would scream (probably be ause she was so tired) and I would give her boob so she would snack and fall asleep on me. Then 20 minutes later the cycle would start again.

I've needed to take a step back and watch her body language more which means not just giving hr boob when she has a fuss.

Surely getting a baby to sleep through the night is for the baby's benefit though? A tired parent who feels like bouncing the baby off the wall through long term sleep deprivation is not likely to be an optimal carer.

It depends doesn't it? For us, I was so sleep deprived I was becoming a danger. We had to do something and if no cry sleep methods hadn't worked I guess we would have had to consider cc. But my aim wasn't sleeping through the night, just getting enough sleep (although she is now sleeping through - hallelujah!) That benefits me and dd. Contrast with the woman who I saw posting about doing CIO (not cc) on a 5 week old so they slept through (not on this thread). That's clearly only for the parent's convenience and not beneficial to the baby.

Agree that there is so much competitiveness in parenting in general. There is a lot of competition between mums about whose baby sleeps the best, as though it's a reflection on their amazing parenting skills.

On the other hand you get those who wear their sleep deprivation as a badge of honour, and hold themselves up as a shining example of what a perfect mummy they are, that little Johnny never needs to do so much as whimper - and how hideously evil the other mummies are - they can't possibly love their babies as much.

It's absolutely ridiculous - we all love our babies and try to do whatever is best for them.

2 of mine did not want to be in my arms - they cried more and more that way, and fussed at the breast. They wanted to be in their cot without any fuss. The others, only wanted to be held.

Being judgemental about others, telling people they only feel guilty because they have something to feel guilty about and telling people they are damaging their child is the exact reason it is so hard for us mums nowadays. Society has changed. We don't have the support from those around us any more. We have to muddle through ourselves. We need to trust our own instincts - which can be hard when we are sleep deprived and run ragged.

Yes, tell us what you did and why - but lay off telling others they are damaging their children. A mum at the end of her coping level is not good for a child - I don't care what book or theory you trot out - it just isn't! I think there is alot of high-horsing going on which is a sad reflection of our society (competitive parenting gone mad)

The main thing is to have the child at heart, feel comfortable with what you are doing, and read the babies cues. We are all human, and no one knows what is best for someone elses child or family, and more to the point, we all need to find our own way through which is the most demanding job in the world.

What a sensible post PotPourri, I wish that everyone thought the same way.
I hate the way that someone makes a decision that suits them and then says that it is right for all babies and all mothers and even worse that you damage your DCs if you don't follow it!
All DCs are different and there is no 'right' way. Not every baby wants to cosleep, even at that age some like their own space and don't want to be carried all the time. They differ within the same family.
Read your baby cues and not a book.
I put it all down to insecurity as a parent.

potpouri - bloomin brilliant post.

I honestly do not get the issue with routine books. as a petrified, sleep deprived clueless new mum they literally saved my sanity.

The message they give is 'enough food and sensible naps during the day mean longer sleep streatches at night'. they then suggest optimum patterns to get that balance between sleep, feeds and play. I just honestly dont get WHY people having an issue when mums make any kind of effort to use sensible feed and sleep patterns during the day. All of a sudden common sense is branded as 'routine' and therefore automatically 'cruel'.

Bonkers.

Potpourri is on the money.

Lamorna the problem is if you don't know how to reas the cues and have no family around to teach you. Where else do you learn but from a book?

Potpourri- I believe your comment about telling people to feel guilty was in relation to one of my earlier posts. It was in response to someone saying I was making people feel guilty by expressing my opinion that cc is wrong. You can't MAKE someone feel guilty. If they feel guilty about doing something with their baby then they shouldn't do it because that is going against their own instincts about what is 'right'.

You can all sit on the fence all you want and say people make the decision that is best for them and their baby but leaving a baby to cry does not have the baby's best interests at heart. A crying baby is not a happy baby.

Beijing - how can a book tell tell you how to read YOUR baby's cues when they author has never met YOUR baby. I do agree that the way we live these days ( away from families - parents, grandparents etc and with many people not growing up around children) has really lessened our trust in our own ability to raise our children.

An earlier poster had a lovely story about a little girl in Africa telling her that the baby needed fed - that little girl was able to recognise the baby's cues because she had grown up around babies and watched them being mothered. That is a skill that we are losing.

LL- I am not trying to make you feel guilty and I haven't said anywhere that you should feel guilty. I am expressing my opinion and you are expressing yours. People saying that co-sleeping and comfort feeding a baby is wrong does not make me feel guilty because I know I am doing what is best for my baby. If you honestly feel that leaving your baby to cry so it was 'sleep trained' was the best thing for your baby then why would you feel guilty about it?

Yes I did feel guilty at the time - I felt guilty because I was terrified of doing the wrong thing because of people like bubbleymummy. However I did what my instinct told me, which was that it couldn't be good for my baby not to be sleeping as he was tired and irritable all the time. However, now I don't feel guilty at all, as the thought of it was far worse than the actual process, and I had a much happier baby for it - within less than 24 hours. I doubt very much that he will ever remember or be affected by that one night.
I am not up on my high horse telling everyone else what to do - just sharing my experience - I don't see why anyone else feels they have that right.

OK, I've been reading this thread for a long time trying not to get involved but I would just like to point out, bubbleymummy, that you've started to argue with yourself. In one paragraph you say that books can't teach you babies' cues because they are individual to that particular baby and then you go on to say that a stranger can recognise a baby's cue better than a mother. Surely this suggests that actually the cues are more or less universal and therefore can be learned from a book (if there are no better sources around).

For what it's worth I don't understand how "each family will do what works for them" is so difficult to comprehend. Babies are not all the same and different strategies work for different babies. Like some other posters have mentioned, as with CC, co-sleeping doesn't work for everyone. We can't co-sleep with my daughter, never have been able to because she expects exciting things to happen when mummy and daddy are around. Sleeping for her only works in a darkened room with no other distractions. That's just how it is. This doesn't mean BF-on-demand doesn't work, all it means is that I have to get out of bed to do it.

Jw, I'm glad that you are happy with your decision. Just curious though about how you could feel guilty if your instinct was telling you it was the right thing to do. Surely we feel guilt because we feel we are doing something wrong? So if you felt you were instinctively doing the right thing then why did you feel guilty? Unless, actually, you were going against your instincts (which was why you felt bad) and following what you 'thought' was the best thing to do because you'd read it/seen it/ heard about it from others/ expected it because of society's general expectations of baby's sleep patterns.

Also, still wondering why people think their babies are incapable of sleeping unless they are 'trained' but hey ho!

You're right riksti, I realise it can read like that. I think it is easier to see and understand a cue (in this case the baby was crying so it must have been a particular cry) in person and interpret it correctly - especially if you have grown up surrounded by babies and have seen/heard many different variations etc. How can you describe that in a book? It would be a very long list! Although I appreciate that some cues such as nuzzling, sucking etc are more obvious and easier to describe! Surely people don't need a book to tell them what those ones mean though? When a baby is trying to nuzzle in and suck on your sweater it is fairly obvious what it wants! :)

Bubbleymummy you win, I have seen the light - thank you! You are clearly the perfect mother and I am dreadful - social services really should take my happy, health, incredibly loved, well rested and well cared for little boy away from me.

I am going to go and say 1000 Hail Marys and punch myself in the face for being so awful.

Goodbye.

bubbleymummy, most mothers feel guilty a lot, because there is no definitive right or wrong and for every person telling you to do it one way, there's another telling you you are making a rod for tour own back/damaging your child. And most of us aren't confident enough, especially in the first few months with our babies, to know 100% that what we are doing is right.

For what it's worth, I'm not comfortable with cc either and have successfully used no cry sleep method and dd has just started sleeping through. But it's up to everyone to make the right choices for them and their families. You are coming across as though you think you are a perfect parent with all the answers and unbearably smug. That's hardly going to win people round to your way of thinking.

Tour=your

Nb note I had to go to a book to get ideas for improving dd's sleep rather than magically "reading her cues". This is because I haven't been around babies much before and didn't have a fucking clue. Should I feel guilty for that?

Newmum, I am by no means the perfect parent and I do not think I am. The only thing I have done and would encourage other people to do is to listen to their baby and respond to it. As babies grow into toddlers and children they understand more there is room for boundaries and guidelines. Trying to 'teach' a small baby by leaving it to cry is not listening to the baby or responding to it so how can anyone say 'trust your instincts', 'listen to your baby' and 'follow your baby's cues' and then say to use cc to enforce a routine - the two completely contradict each other!

Oh good grief! You ladies and your guilt! I don't care what you do/ don't feel guilty about! Of course we all second guess ourselves and wonder if we're doing the right thing and if you base all your decisions on books how could you ever not feel guilty? If you read one book it will tell you one thing is wrong and your child should be doing this and if you read another it will tell you something completely different! If you follow your own baby then how could you ever feel guilty?

My comments about Africa are just to point out howmuch easier that little girl will find it to raise her own children because she has been watching it all her life. It is sad that we are losing/maybe already have lost that because of the way we live - why would you feel guilty about that newmum? That's just the way things are!

Also ll, not responding to a grizzle is not the same as using cc ie. Leaving your baby to cry for progressively longer periods of time! How old are your twins btw?

'Lamorna the problem is if you don't know how to reas the cues and have no family around to teach you. Where else do you learn but from a book?'

You spend time with your baby. I don't see how your family can teach you, they may be very different personalities and as someone has already said, the author of the book doesn't know your baby, they also don't know you. You learn with the baby. Mine didn't like being swaddled, he made it perfectly clear at one day old. I could have gone with the advice of 'all babies feel secure swaddled' but I went with him, he wasn't 'all babies'.